(This is a cross-posting from SLK World (I cannot post the URL as it is filtered away on publishing), hope this is OK!)
Hello everybody,
Your valuable input on the following would be very much appreciated. This is my story...
I have a 1999 SLK 200. I have had the car for almost a year without any major disturbances.
A couple of months ago I experienced some problems when I opened the roof. At 2-3 occasions the roof stopped moving at its highest point i.e., when the rear window was just moving through its vertical position. The first time this happened I thought that my finger had just slipped from the button. When I pressed the button again, the roof continued to open as if nothing had happened. When the same thing happened again, a couple of days later, I realised that something was wrong but did not take any action since pressing the button an extra time wasn't the whole world. After all, the roof opened every time anyway.
Then things got worse (big surprise...). Next time I opened the roof, the trunk lid did not close when the roof had been lowered into the trunk. No matter what direction I pressed the button, the hydraulic pump whined in the back but nothing happened. The roof was stuck in the trunk and the lid was firmly stuck in its open position.
I did some lame attempts at closing the roof manually but gave up since, with the trunk lid stuck open, I could not even reach into the trunk to relieve the pump pressure and get at the puller cables.
After reading some posts in this forum I concluded that some of the micro-switches must be faulty and drove the car carefully (the open trunk lid generated a lot of drag!) to the nearest Merc dealership asking for help, thinking that fixing this would just be a walk in the park for them.
They were kind enough to take on my car immediately, although I hadn't booked a time, but when I came back for the car later that day, it turned out that their 'roof expert' was on vacation so they had just closed the roof manually for me without attempting to fix the problem. Instead they gave me a service slot a couple of weeks later when the 'roof expert' would be back from his vacation. I asked the guy at the desk how they managed to close the roof and whether they had relieved the hydraulic pump pressure before moving the roof (it says clearly in my manual that moving the roof manually without relieving the pump pressure may damage the pump). When the guy looked back at me with a blank expression, I knew I was in trouble. But the guys at the reception desk are not mechanics so I convinced myself that even if this guy did not know what I was talking about, the guys in the back surely must have known what they were doing.
The next couple of weeks I did not even touch the roof opening button as I was afraid that the roof would get stuck again. Last week was finally time for my service slot. After the garage kept the car for a couple of days without calling me I finally got hold of them over the phone and asked them about the status of my car. The answer: the hydraulic pump for the roof is broken. A new one will cost about $1,800, plus another $800 to install it.
This was obviously shocking news to me and the next day I went to the dealership to speak to the service people directly. In short, they told me that they had ran all kinds of test on the car (which set me back another $250) and their conclusion was that the micro-switches should be fine but the pump was broken. According to them, the pump pressure was too low and not generating enough power to lift the roof.
I challenged them, arguing that this was hardly consistent with the initial problem with the roof stopping in its highest position. At the highest point, the required pump pressure should almost be zero, since basically the roof then just falls down by itself into the trunk. With a faulty pump, the roof should not have opened at all. (Admittedly, a faulty pump could be maybe consistent with my final problem; the stuck roof and trunk lid).
When I asked them to consider the possibility that maybe the root cause was faulty micro-switches and their own people had broken the pump when they closed the roof manually a couple of weeks earlier, the service boss said that this could not have happened since you cannot even move the roof without relieving the pump pressure (why is this then warned against in the manual...?). Secondly, he said, that if you manage to move the roof anyway, the hydraulic lines and their seals will give first, causing a big leak of hydraulic fluid. Since this did not happen, he concluded, they could not have done anything wrong. At the same time he admitted that this was a very rare occurence and that the hydraulic pumps almost never break down. At this stage I should of course have asked to see the guys who handled the car the previous time but I felt rather stupid standing there, trying to argue abouth things of which I don't know very much and I am sure that the guys I talked to wouldn't have known anyway who was involved the last time (it is a very big garage).
So, at this stage I could only pay my $250 for their tests and take my car home to think over my options. I called another garage (independent but specialized in Mercs) for a second opinion. The guy I talked to there claimed that the other guys were morons who knew nothing. He claimed he had himself 20+ years experience of Merc convertibles and had yet to see a broken hydraulic pump. Obviously, he was unable to promise anything without having seen my car but he was pretty sure that this was a micro-switch problem more than anything else.
While I hope that he is right, it seems improbable that the hydraulic pump is not broken when the dealership mechanic says that it is. Such a fault should be fairly easy to detect - either the pump delivers sufficient pressure or it doesn't, no?
All this has made me more confused than ever and this is where I hope to get some valuable feedback and advise from you guys (and thanks to all of you, who endured reading this far!):
My long story boils down to the following questions:
1. Is my initial problem (roof stops halfway) consistent with micro-switch faults, pump faults or both?
2. Is my second problem (roof stuck in lid, trunk lid stuck open) consistent with micro-switch faults, pump faults or both?
3. Could I have broken the pump myself (overloaded it or something) when trying to open and close the roof when it was stuck in the lid?
4. Could the mechanics have broken the pump when they closed the roof manually?
5. How likely is it to have a simultaneous micro-switch and pump problem?
5. Is it true that the fluid lines and/or seals will give first, causing a leak, if you nevertheless move the roof manually (i.e., was the service boss ********ting me or is it a plausible explanation)?
6 Anything else you come to think of...?
7 ...?
I think my options are the following:
1. Looking for a used hydraulic pump (they could be found for around $800, I am *not* going to buy a new one) and pay the dealership another $800 to install it. If it then turns out that the roof is still not working because there are faulty micro-switches, this opens for an interesting discussion since the mechanic claimed that the switches were ok. But then I will already have paid $800 (unnecessarily?) for a working pump.
2. Pay the second garage for checking out the car. This may cost me another $250 for nothing if it turns out that they reach the same conclusion as the dealership. If, on the other hand, their conclusion is that it is a smaller problem, I will let them fix it and then go back to the dealership to raise hell about them trying to skim me of $2,400 and charging me $250 for an incorrect analysis.
Since I am not an expert, it is very hard to know whether I have reasons to be suspicious or if I am just being paranoid. But just because I am paranoid doesn't mean they are not trying to fool me and cover their own backs...
Sorry about the long post :bowdown:
==== Added later ====
Today I managed to hook up my newly acquired Carsoft + multiplexer with the car to read the status codes. I hope to be able to do at least some analysis myself before I hand the car over to a mechanic again.
First I read the existing status codes, then I erased them and read them again to see if some codes would still be there. The subsystem of most interest in this case was VD (Vario Roof):
Error codes from Carsoft before erasing the memory:
VD:
B1490 Pump relays
B12670 Trunk lid open and trunk lid closed limit switch activated simultaneously
B1272 Hardtop closed switch activated while hardtop open switch is not activated
B1279 hardtop (locked) switch (left or right)
Apparently a number of errors have accumulated while I have been trying to use the roof but it is not apparent to me what is the root cause. After erasing the memory and re-doing the test, all codes went away. I still don't want to try to open the roof in case it gets stuck again but I guess I will have to do that in order to get more error codes from the system.
Note: the red light in the roof control button is not enabled as it used to be. Any conclusions to be drawn from that?
Hello everybody,
Your valuable input on the following would be very much appreciated. This is my story...
I have a 1999 SLK 200. I have had the car for almost a year without any major disturbances.
A couple of months ago I experienced some problems when I opened the roof. At 2-3 occasions the roof stopped moving at its highest point i.e., when the rear window was just moving through its vertical position. The first time this happened I thought that my finger had just slipped from the button. When I pressed the button again, the roof continued to open as if nothing had happened. When the same thing happened again, a couple of days later, I realised that something was wrong but did not take any action since pressing the button an extra time wasn't the whole world. After all, the roof opened every time anyway.
Then things got worse (big surprise...). Next time I opened the roof, the trunk lid did not close when the roof had been lowered into the trunk. No matter what direction I pressed the button, the hydraulic pump whined in the back but nothing happened. The roof was stuck in the trunk and the lid was firmly stuck in its open position.
I did some lame attempts at closing the roof manually but gave up since, with the trunk lid stuck open, I could not even reach into the trunk to relieve the pump pressure and get at the puller cables.
After reading some posts in this forum I concluded that some of the micro-switches must be faulty and drove the car carefully (the open trunk lid generated a lot of drag!) to the nearest Merc dealership asking for help, thinking that fixing this would just be a walk in the park for them.
They were kind enough to take on my car immediately, although I hadn't booked a time, but when I came back for the car later that day, it turned out that their 'roof expert' was on vacation so they had just closed the roof manually for me without attempting to fix the problem. Instead they gave me a service slot a couple of weeks later when the 'roof expert' would be back from his vacation. I asked the guy at the desk how they managed to close the roof and whether they had relieved the hydraulic pump pressure before moving the roof (it says clearly in my manual that moving the roof manually without relieving the pump pressure may damage the pump). When the guy looked back at me with a blank expression, I knew I was in trouble. But the guys at the reception desk are not mechanics so I convinced myself that even if this guy did not know what I was talking about, the guys in the back surely must have known what they were doing.
The next couple of weeks I did not even touch the roof opening button as I was afraid that the roof would get stuck again. Last week was finally time for my service slot. After the garage kept the car for a couple of days without calling me I finally got hold of them over the phone and asked them about the status of my car. The answer: the hydraulic pump for the roof is broken. A new one will cost about $1,800, plus another $800 to install it.
This was obviously shocking news to me and the next day I went to the dealership to speak to the service people directly. In short, they told me that they had ran all kinds of test on the car (which set me back another $250) and their conclusion was that the micro-switches should be fine but the pump was broken. According to them, the pump pressure was too low and not generating enough power to lift the roof.
I challenged them, arguing that this was hardly consistent with the initial problem with the roof stopping in its highest position. At the highest point, the required pump pressure should almost be zero, since basically the roof then just falls down by itself into the trunk. With a faulty pump, the roof should not have opened at all. (Admittedly, a faulty pump could be maybe consistent with my final problem; the stuck roof and trunk lid).
When I asked them to consider the possibility that maybe the root cause was faulty micro-switches and their own people had broken the pump when they closed the roof manually a couple of weeks earlier, the service boss said that this could not have happened since you cannot even move the roof without relieving the pump pressure (why is this then warned against in the manual...?). Secondly, he said, that if you manage to move the roof anyway, the hydraulic lines and their seals will give first, causing a big leak of hydraulic fluid. Since this did not happen, he concluded, they could not have done anything wrong. At the same time he admitted that this was a very rare occurence and that the hydraulic pumps almost never break down. At this stage I should of course have asked to see the guys who handled the car the previous time but I felt rather stupid standing there, trying to argue abouth things of which I don't know very much and I am sure that the guys I talked to wouldn't have known anyway who was involved the last time (it is a very big garage).
So, at this stage I could only pay my $250 for their tests and take my car home to think over my options. I called another garage (independent but specialized in Mercs) for a second opinion. The guy I talked to there claimed that the other guys were morons who knew nothing. He claimed he had himself 20+ years experience of Merc convertibles and had yet to see a broken hydraulic pump. Obviously, he was unable to promise anything without having seen my car but he was pretty sure that this was a micro-switch problem more than anything else.
While I hope that he is right, it seems improbable that the hydraulic pump is not broken when the dealership mechanic says that it is. Such a fault should be fairly easy to detect - either the pump delivers sufficient pressure or it doesn't, no?
All this has made me more confused than ever and this is where I hope to get some valuable feedback and advise from you guys (and thanks to all of you, who endured reading this far!):
My long story boils down to the following questions:
1. Is my initial problem (roof stops halfway) consistent with micro-switch faults, pump faults or both?
2. Is my second problem (roof stuck in lid, trunk lid stuck open) consistent with micro-switch faults, pump faults or both?
3. Could I have broken the pump myself (overloaded it or something) when trying to open and close the roof when it was stuck in the lid?
4. Could the mechanics have broken the pump when they closed the roof manually?
5. How likely is it to have a simultaneous micro-switch and pump problem?
5. Is it true that the fluid lines and/or seals will give first, causing a leak, if you nevertheless move the roof manually (i.e., was the service boss ********ting me or is it a plausible explanation)?
6 Anything else you come to think of...?
7 ...?
I think my options are the following:
1. Looking for a used hydraulic pump (they could be found for around $800, I am *not* going to buy a new one) and pay the dealership another $800 to install it. If it then turns out that the roof is still not working because there are faulty micro-switches, this opens for an interesting discussion since the mechanic claimed that the switches were ok. But then I will already have paid $800 (unnecessarily?) for a working pump.
2. Pay the second garage for checking out the car. This may cost me another $250 for nothing if it turns out that they reach the same conclusion as the dealership. If, on the other hand, their conclusion is that it is a smaller problem, I will let them fix it and then go back to the dealership to raise hell about them trying to skim me of $2,400 and charging me $250 for an incorrect analysis.
Since I am not an expert, it is very hard to know whether I have reasons to be suspicious or if I am just being paranoid. But just because I am paranoid doesn't mean they are not trying to fool me and cover their own backs...
Sorry about the long post :bowdown:
==== Added later ====
Today I managed to hook up my newly acquired Carsoft + multiplexer with the car to read the status codes. I hope to be able to do at least some analysis myself before I hand the car over to a mechanic again.
First I read the existing status codes, then I erased them and read them again to see if some codes would still be there. The subsystem of most interest in this case was VD (Vario Roof):
Error codes from Carsoft before erasing the memory:
VD:
B1490 Pump relays
B12670 Trunk lid open and trunk lid closed limit switch activated simultaneously
B1272 Hardtop closed switch activated while hardtop open switch is not activated
B1279 hardtop (locked) switch (left or right)
Apparently a number of errors have accumulated while I have been trying to use the roof but it is not apparent to me what is the root cause. After erasing the memory and re-doing the test, all codes went away. I still don't want to try to open the roof in case it gets stuck again but I guess I will have to do that in order to get more error codes from the system.
Note: the red light in the roof control button is not enabled as it used to be. Any conclusions to be drawn from that?