loaded question

Ulf,

there is a lot to respond to in your post, and we can ultimately get to the bottom of the problem(s). However, we need a few more details. Allow me to ask a few questions first, so that we can narrow things down:

Did the same mechanic install the cylinders, who is now working on them? If he installed the cylinders, why didn't he see a scratch on the one cylinder in the first place? I would expect that from a professional. Also, what do you mean by "the rear acting up"? What do you mean by "steering the front"? Which year and model are we dealing with on the car?

The star system will tell you if the micro switches signal anything unusual. It does not measure pressure at the pump.

-Klaus

klaus@tophydraulicsinc.com

 

Klaus I answered your PM
Just a short status here ,no it's not the same mechanic why he didn't tell we don't know he is not working there anymore.
With "steering" I mean I have to pull it in it's not latching by itself like it should be.
In the back now it start not too close too so I have to push the lid down and lift it up again to close it,I'm now afraid to open the top at all.The question is can that have anything to do with the repair or replacement of the one cylinder which was scratched.
It' a 1997 SL320 never any problem with the top before.

 

Don't be afraid of the top!

Ulf,

thanks for following up. I gather from your message that the previous mechanic tried to rebuild the failed cylinder himself, and scratched it up while he was at it. Some mechanics can be convincing, and I don't blame you. Sorry about your trouble.

You are asking whether the whole problem can have anything to do with the replaced cylinder? Well, you may have several separate and very solvable issues here. Unless the fluid was not refilled, or some gunky fluid was used instead, this should not have affected the rear's operation. Did the pump run dry at all?

It could be as easy as needing lubrication on the locks. The need to steer in the front is not unusual, and you could do an advanced search on alignment. Aam posted something a few weeks ago.

I assume that your current mechanic has checked the fluid level at the pump... I wonder why he is waiting for software for his star diagnosis when he thinks that the pump is weak! For the time being, I'm concerned about the shop's level of expertise.

Please explain what does and does not work or happen when you "push the lid down and lift it up again to close it". A very detailed report helps us in narrowing down the problem faster.

Most importantly, do not be afraid of operating the top, unless the pump is out of fluid! If the system quits on you, you can still operate it manually. Instead, observe what all seems abnormal, and let us know about it.

-Klaus

klaus@tophydraulicsinc.com

 

Klaus to summaries,the first mechanic worked for years at the dealer ship here so should know what he is doing,but for some reason screwed up.The current mechanic is the owner ,he worked at the dealer ship and opened his own shop 16 years ago ,that is how long I know him, and especial with older cars he is familiar and has a good reputation in Naples.
He lubricated all locks,the fluid level in the reservoir is good.
I can open the top with no problems.
When I close it ,it don't latch in front so I have to jiggle it to get it latch,and now in the rear the boot open up but the top will not fold in.
So I closed the lid with my hands and opened it up with power again ,then I tried again,latched the front and this time pushed the soft top in .
During the whole time the red button in the car was lit up.
So at one time it was closed correctly that i could leave the car over night.
That is basically it,again that all came together after the change of the scratched cylinder ,never ever any problem with the top before.

Ulf

 

When I close it ,it don't latch in front so I have to jiggle it to get it latch,and now in the rear the boot open up but the top will not fold in.
Ulf

Ulf,

I assume you mean that the top will not fold down onto the rear lid by itself during the closing sequence, right?

When it finally latches in the front, does it do that automatically, or do you have to use the soft top tool to turn the locks? If it refuses to latch automatically in the front, you may have the magnetic sensor in the middle of the windshield header panel disconnected or out of place, which is a common oversight when replacing the front lock cylinders on '95+ models. You can see the proper position of that sensor in my front lock cylinder removal instructions, page 3:

http://tophydraulicsinc.com/R129 Front Locking Cylinder Removal.pdf.

Star Diagnosis would indeed tell you which switch might be giving a signal that halts the closing sequence.

-Klaus

klaus@tophydraulicsinc.com

 

Klaus I think we found the problem.I told you we had 5 Cylinder done,I just saw that 2 cylinder in the rear are leaking that would explain the lost of pressure and locking problems.
I told Joe to take all cylinder which are not done out and send them to you.
Could you give me the address and tell me how that shipping and payment to you works so that I can take care of it.

Thank you for all the help you provide to Benz world members

Ulf

Also let me add to the member here,it is not worth it to try to fix these by yourself to save a few Dollar and if one leaks do them all.
I saw in a few weeks that one after the other goes which is just frustrating ,do them all and the pain is over.

 

Outch!

Ulf,

a major leak in a bow extension cylinder would explain why the top did not pull down in the rear. A leak in a rear lock cylinder can keep it from locking down. A leak in a tonneau cover lock cylinder can prevent the tonneau cover from locking. A leak in a main lift cylinder can keep the top from retracting. I did not bring it up, because I thought that part would have been checked already... You are right, once you have several cylinders leaking, it is best to have all of those done which haven't been replaced lately.

As I have written repeatedly, here are our statistics on full sets being rebuilt: when we receive full sets, we find that on average fewer than three out of the eleven or twelve cylinders still have decent seals! That includes finding newer front lock cylinders in many sets, which have been replaced more recently with OEM cylinders, or by a friendly competitor. Which seals might have had a few more years of life left, is completely random. Outside of used car dealers, most people who send us a few cylinders at first, end up replacing the whole set. Shipping Priority Mail from Florida to Oregon takes three days, and shipping them back your way takes two days. We currently turn around full sets in two days.

I don't mean to rub salt into the wound, but people also save money by sending in the whole set at once, because we offer a package deal, and because it involves less total labor to do it all at once.

Lastly, our seals last longer than OEM, or those of others...

Our website Welcome to Top Hydraulics, Inc. has the shipping address, and you can pay pay via PayPal or credit card in the checkout page.
Plus, you can find the step-by-step DIY instructions for removal and installation of all cylinders.

Feel free to send in any locking cylinders still mounted inside their locks - you save labor charges from the shop, and we know they won't get scratched upon removal. Drain all the oil from the cylinders, wrap well, buffer the voids in the box, tape the box up well, and you can actually send everything for $11 in a USPS Priority Mail Medium Flat Rate Box!

Thanks,

-Klaus

klaus@tophydraulicsinc.com

 

Failed rebuilds, crumbling seals, plugged filters, alignment

Folks,

it's been on my to-do list for a while now to summarize and explain what happened in this convoluted case. I have had some concerns about appearing too aggressive towards my competition.

Initially, Ulflei reported about slow roof operation after just having had his mechanic rebuild three cylinders himself, about having to steer the top in the front when closing, and about the mechanic thinking the pump was weak.

Then things got worse and parts of the roof were not operating any more. It turns out that there were numerous leaking cylinders. There were actually two kinds of cylinders left in the car when Ulflei originally started this thread: those already rebuilt by our friendly competition a little over two years ago, and those that his own mechanic rebuilt recently (rebuilds of the first rebuilds).

Of the three cylinders rebuilt by his mechanic, Ulf sent in only one, because his mechanic warranted the cylinders and would have charged for the labor of removing them again. Trouble was, one of the mechanic-rebuilds was found to be leaking right away on account of scratches. It was actually the easiest one of the bunch to rebuild. Ulf reported that his mechanic replaced that one right away. We received one of the other mechanic-rebuilds, and I don't know if that happened by accident or not. In any case, it was a rear lock cylinder, the second-easiest to rebuild. It was heavily scratched way down the shaft, as well. That one needed to be replaced.

Of the remaining cylinders rebuilt by our friendly competitor, Ulf sent in seven, which was the whole set short of the ones done by his mechanic and short of one main lift cylinder. The findings were the following:

Six of the seven regular, molded PU seals used in those rebuilds were in different, serious stages of decay! They were actually crumbling, which caused the continued slow roof operation - I'll explain that below. The seventh seal, the seal for the main lift cylinder, wasn't seriously decaying yet, but it was losing its softness. That actually allowed for a leak along some tiny scratches in a stationary surface touching the seals, inflicted by the party of the first rebuild. Those tiny scratches were sealed as long as the regular PU seal material was soft.

The photos below show the following:
1) Rear lock cylinder with date and initials by our friendly competitor, as well as Ulf's postmark, in case anyone thinks I was making this up.
2) Tonneau lift cylinders, also having crumbling seals
3) The seven seals in different stages of decay.

That seal material is (practically) the same as what Mercedes used in the early SLKs, and the decay pattern is similar. However, the SLK pumps are made to be less sensitive to contamination than the SL-pumps.

The interesting continuation of this case was, that even with the fixed cylinders the roof was still lifting slowly. The individual cylinders for RST operation are activated by solenoids in the valve blocks. Every solenoid has a fine filter mesh to keep particles from compromising its function. Since the main lift cylinders have the most fluid going through them, it would stand to reason that their solenoid's filter gets plugged first by remnants of crumbling seals. I repeatedly coached Ulf's mechanic over the phone how to pull the solenoids on the valve blocks, in order to inspect the filters. That was it! The problem of having to steer the roof in the front upon closing was resolved by alignment, as suggested.

In defense of Ulf's mechanic, he is actually a smart and enterprising guy. The scratches on his own rebuilds were made by his employee, and plugged solenoid filters are pretty rare.

Moral of the story (for those who managed to read this far): send your cylinders to us for rebuild and upgrade. Our seals are chemically much more stable than those of our friendly competition, and much more stable than the OEM seals. We have special tools for every step of the way, and we will give you support by email or phone if there are more problems with your system. I am not one who enjoys boasting about my own products, and I was very hesitant to even reference my competition in this post because I don't want to invite negativism here - note the time lag between the event and this summary. However, the problems that Ulf encountered, and similar problems that others have had, were so serious that I thought this kind of clarification would be justified and worthwhile. I apologize to anyone who is now feeling badly about what is in their system, and have the encouraging words that many of the rebuilds from our competition that we get as parts of complete sets or as core returns, are still in good shape. I would still put Dennis' seals on the same level as the OEM's, so nothing was really lost compared to buying new cylinders for those who decided to have him rebuild their cylinders. This particular case was rather extreme, and the same might have happened with OEM replacements. Dennis has served this community well, and he is not a fast-talking salesman like some of the other "rebuilders" cropping up (and disappearing again) from time to time...

I hope that all will be well now for Ulf's RST for a long time...

-Klaus

klaus@tophydraulicsinc.com

 

Hi to all!
I can testify to every word that Klaus wrote here ,again and again I can only tell you how amazed I was from all the support through Klaus by that dilemma.
He talked to me several times and also a lot to my mechanic ,he really spend a lot of time to explain and to help.
My cylinder were done by Dennis shortly before I bought the car ,the fact that they were done was one of the reason I bought it,as more I was disappointed when they failed and all together I ended up with a $1300.00 bill

Thank you Klaus for all you did

Ulf

 

Yes I actually custom made my seals in some factory in China (I am leaving there) and installed them myself. Now yesterday I looked into the system to fix it (1 month later) and 2 of the cylinders are leaking already. A small leaking but still, I guess I scratched those 2 myself.

Anyway, just to say that I thought I would be able to do it myself and finally I was not!

I will try to find a solution here in China as chinese are amazing to find solutions for everything! If nothing else works, I will send them to Klaus.

Thanks for your patience and help.

 

The problem is when you scratch the cylinder you can't use them anymore and if you scratch the one on the side they are something like $500.00 a piece that is an expensive do it yourself.

 

Hi, I have a sl300 1991 and am facing problems with its soft top, i have replaced all cylinders, control module, mechanical soft top still its not working properly. It opens and closes but the problem is that the motor does not get disconnected and it puts immense pressure on the cylinders which might leak due to that, my mechanic says that there is trouble with wiring, any suggestions from you guys would really help, im at wits end kindly help if you can. If you need any more info i can ask my mechanic to brief you via email. Thanks in advance.

 

cjn104,

welcome to the forum! You have revived an old thread, but it is an interesting one.

Please describe in detail what is happening.
Does the top open and close all the way?
Does the red light stay on after you are done?
Do you hear a chime when you turn on the car or when you put it into gear? Does the pump motor stop running as soon as you let go of the red button?

A brief comment regarding your statement that the pump will put too much pressure on them and make the cylinders leak: If the pump keeps running, then it will eventually shut off by itself due to overheating. This will not affect the cylinder seals, as long as you put in cylinders with good seals. If anyone local tried to rebuild your original cylinders '91, then you are in trouble, but that's a different story.

Klaus

www.tophydraulicsinc.com