New 6.0 drivetrain for the SL600 - Page 4 - Mercedes-Benz Forum
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#31 (permalink) Old 01-01-2009, 06:35 PM
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I must admit, when I first read of the engine swap I got real excited. I thought: Finally... someones gonna install the almighty AMG 65 bi-turbo motor.
But my wood went limp when I saw a Chevrolet van engine inhabiting an SL 600's engine bay.

Look, everyones got their opinions. But being you posted expecting feedback... I'll offer mine:
The only way I can justify an engine swap is if its from the same manufacturer and its got more power to begin with.

Otherwise I consider it to be a perverse way of desecrating a Mercedes flagship.


SL55 (R129) 5.7L AMG Kompressor engine, 85mm TB, SLR cam shafts, MAHLE forged pistons, ported heads, long tube headers, full AMG exhaust, AMG P030 Brakes, Quaife LSD
CLS55 (R219) 85mm TB, RENNtech air box, Kleemann Headers, 175mm lower & 84mm upper pulley, 550cc injectors & looped rail, EC dyno tune (528rwhp/598rwtq), and a custom IC reservoir behind my front grill to keep things cool

Last edited by Tech-Tune; 01-01-2009 at 07:20 PM.
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#32 (permalink) Old 01-01-2009, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cdk4219 View Post
"I'm seeing $3900 in parts,"


Plus the two MAf's at $350 or so each, taking the parts total to $4,600. More than likely there would have been other parts that were needed.

I would have made the V12 work, but that amount would get me a 100k mile engine trans that would certainly need more attention sooner than later. Plus the fact that it would only put 320 to 330WHP with no to little room for performance modification. All of the LS1 swaps I have done regularly put 320WHP stock. A cam change will net at the minimum 20WHP. This "Van engine" is nothing more or less than an LS1 or LS2 with an iron block. All other parts are the same, it is just 75lbs or so heavier, but still weighs much, much less than the M120.

I am not knocking the mechanical side of an M120, but the electrical works leave much to be desired. These engines were designed in the late 80's, and the electrical engineering in the early 90's. The more complex something is, the more chances it has to fail, and mine did. The fact that there are'nt many 600's makes the parts expensive. (I have had this discussion before, and it has come up again with the motor mount cost $45 for the SL500 vs $100 for the SL600) The parts that are used are in the same condition that I have, not usable.

If I can make a car that is faster, gets better fuel mileage, is more reliable, and less expensive to work on, what is the big deal? Better yet the Jed Clampett Express R129 (as it will be reffered to from now on JCER129), will be One of only One, much more exclusive than any run of the mill Sl600. I will go out on a limb and surmise that most who have purchased sl600's did it for the increased HP, and exclusivity, but not for the mainenance cost Maybe some enjoy spending money and time to repair these things, I don't.


I will track the cost of this for those who want to know. This endeavor is not for everyone, but I will find out what the cost, performance, and fuel mileage is. On a side note, what do you think the Ferrari guys will say when I find a Magnum PI 308 or newer 328
There's nothing wrong with the design of the M120 electrics, the issue you're having is just the same problem that everybody with any Mercedes of that vintage will have, with those stupid biodegradable wiring harnesses that the factory used back then. Once you replace the original harnesses with the new ones that don't have that defect, then you won't have the problem again. You act like it's going to keep breaking on you, but it won't.

And as to the MAF's, man, they are a consumable item, you need new ones every few years anyway, so I'm not sure what the big deal is with that? That's just general maintenance.

And I'm just not following your math on the horsepower thing. The M120 normally makes around 320-330rwhp, as shown by the dynos I've seen, including my own. Meanwhile, that LQ4 van motor is rated at 300hp at the CRANK, which translates to around 240hp at the wheels. So you're losing 80-90rwhp right from the get-go, and yet you say one of your considerations is that you can mod the van motor easier than the M120. This makes no sense, because you're already down 80-90rwhp. You will have to mod the $h!t out of that silly van motor just to make back that initial defecit, let alone make any gains over a stock M120. Do you know how hard it is to get an extra 100hp out of a naturally aspirated motor??? Lol. If you do manage to top the output of a stock M120, it won't be by much, and it's going to cost you a lot more than just replacing the wiring harnesses would have.

I'm still totally lost on this one...

"Veni, Vidi, volo in domum redire." (I came, I saw, I want to go home.)
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#33 (permalink) Old 01-02-2009, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech-Tune View Post
I must admit, when I first read of the engine swap I got real excited. I thought: Finally... someones gonna install the almighty AMG 65 bi-turbo motor.
But my wood went limp when I saw a Chevrolet van engine inhabiting an SL 600's engine bay.

Look, everyones got their opinions. But being you posted expecting feedback... I'll offer mine:
The only way I can justify an engine swap is if its from the same manufacturer and its got more power to begin with.

Otherwise I consider it to be a perverse way of desecrating a Mercedes flagship.
I'm sorry cdk4219 but I totally agree with Tech-Tune on his considerations and also with chriswufgator. Call me sentimental or close-minded but I really can't see a Chevy engine in a R129 no matter what. It might be cost effective in your eyes and maybe it probably even is but so to speak I'm not a fan of genetic egineering. For fruits or vegetables or for humans or for cars.

Cheers.

I drive like I stole . . . YOURS
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#34 (permalink) Old 01-02-2009, 04:25 AM
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M120 into a R107

Please take a look at M120 into 560SL (With Pictures!)
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#35 (permalink) Old 01-02-2009, 05:03 PM
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My thoughts.

Needless to say I would have never done this being one who went the other way. However I certainly understand the creators rational. We are talking about a 1994 SL600. It's retail value is now well under $20,000, however it was once upon a time, a $140,000+ car, and a super car it is. The problem is that the average person who purchase this car at < $20,000 cannot afford to maintain it, which is likely the reason the resale value is so low to begin with. Service at an MB dealer can easily exceed $5000 a visit and independents you can trust to this engine are far and few between. That leaves only the people who can work on it themselves and willing to learn about this car.

But I would have taken a different approach, which is a solution I still may resort to should my M120 start to give me problems. My engine is from a 1996 SL600 with full throttle by wire ME fuel/ignition management and COP. Should any of this become overwhelming in cost I will simply remove the electronic throttle valves and replace them with mechanical throttle valves then replace the entire engine management system with an aftermarket ECU. All this can be done at significantly less cost than the a Chevy swap and generally will done with allot more elegance.

I have always been a supporter of Chevy swaps when done correctly and with purpose. I have often considered the Chevy into a 107 and in fact that was the way my M120 swap was originally conceived. Except it was going to be and LS7 Chevy. The reason for the Chevy swap into the 107 is pretty straight forward. The M117 engine is a 40 year old boat anchor by today's standards. On the contrary the M119 and M120 engines are not. If the purpose is to maintain power in the 320 RWHP range then an engine swap form a 320HP M119 or a 389HP M120 to a 320HP LS1 would not be prudent. But if the reason for the Chevrolet swap is to get as much RWHP above 400 for the buck then by all means Chevrolet is the way to go.
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#36 (permalink) Old 01-02-2009, 06:50 PM
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If you buy a Mercedes, make sure your financially prepared for the maintenance costs.
If you cant afford the maintanance, buy something within your means.

But when you decide to bastardize your Mercedes and try to justify it on an MB forum... deal with the critisisms.


The reason is simple:
This is Benzworld... not Chevyworld!!!


SL55 (R129) 5.7L AMG Kompressor engine, 85mm TB, SLR cam shafts, MAHLE forged pistons, ported heads, long tube headers, full AMG exhaust, AMG P030 Brakes, Quaife LSD
CLS55 (R219) 85mm TB, RENNtech air box, Kleemann Headers, 175mm lower & 84mm upper pulley, 550cc injectors & looped rail, EC dyno tune (528rwhp/598rwtq), and a custom IC reservoir behind my front grill to keep things cool

Last edited by Tech-Tune; 01-02-2009 at 07:03 PM.
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#37 (permalink) Old 01-02-2009, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech-Tune View Post
If you buy a Mercedes, make sure your financially prepared for the maintenance costs.
If you cant afford the maintenance, buy something within your means.

But when you decide to bastardize your Mercedes and try to justify it on an MB forum... deal with the criticisms.


The reason is simple:
This is Benzworld... not Chevyworld!!!

Hahaha.

Very well put, Alex.
What do they expect, flowers?
S*T
Or do it, and say nothing..........

Regards.
aam.
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#38 (permalink) Old 01-02-2009, 08:58 PM
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exactly


SL55 (R129) 5.7L AMG Kompressor engine, 85mm TB, SLR cam shafts, MAHLE forged pistons, ported heads, long tube headers, full AMG exhaust, AMG P030 Brakes, Quaife LSD
CLS55 (R219) 85mm TB, RENNtech air box, Kleemann Headers, 175mm lower & 84mm upper pulley, 550cc injectors & looped rail, EC dyno tune (528rwhp/598rwtq), and a custom IC reservoir behind my front grill to keep things cool
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#39 (permalink) Old 01-02-2009, 10:17 PM
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Actually 320WHP is not the goal, 600WHP is. It should do 350WHP normally aspirated, and close to 550 wheel at 10psi (damn all that from an astro van motor). I agree if only looking for near stock HP numbers , then mechanical throttle bodies, and aftermarket ecu may be the way to go. I didnt find any that would successfully control two distributors and throttle bodies (I may not have researched long enough)

I am not in need of any blessings from anybody for this. I have been through these discussions many times with all of the swapped cars I have done. All of them do what I intended them to do, be more reliable, and run better.

I certainly think that putting a supercharger on an SL500 and getting it to run 115 mph is an achievement, but the dollar per HP is nonsense IMO (why not just buy a new SL65?) To get an M120 to do that would take at least double, if not triple what the car is worth. What I am interested in is having a car that I can Daily drive, that gets more than 15MPG, and is the quickest R129 in the states, maybe the world. I believe that I can do this for less than the repair cost of the M120, and have some fun while I am doing it. .


Most of the posts in this forum deal with questions asked and answered by people who come here wanting to save some money on a repair that the car manufacturer or dealer is taking advantage of. For example the hydraulic cylinder repair thread, ( if you can't handle the $4500 to replace the factory cylinders, then you should drive a car within your means, and this also applies to the wonderful service Dennis Fickens provides as he is'nt using the Mercedes parts) What is it they say about people who live in glass houses?

Try not to get your panties too bunched up here, after all , it is just a car with four wheels. Don't worry the R129 did not even complain a bit, when the van engine went in the compartment, no crying or anything
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#40 (permalink) Old 01-03-2009, 06:25 AM
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so let me get this straight there is an sl600 engine just sitting around not powering any car at the moment right?
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