Headers

I'd be in on some for 5.0L M119! Any available aftermarket yet or would it be another custom fab?

 

I'd be in on some for 5.0L M119! Any available aftermarket yet or would it be another custom fab?

Count me in also...now our only problem would be to go and entice other forum members in the East Coast to join us, as I obviously can't send my car over, to serve as the pattern for the M119.

I am wondering if there would be much of a difference with the M119 fitted to the W124...as maybe those guy's might be interested in joining us M119 equipped R129 guys?

As far as cat-cons are concerned, I guess we could fit aftermarket 200~300 cell metal cat-cons. :thumbsup:

 

I don't mind hooking you M119 owners up with my fabricator.
All we would need is enough interest and a local member willing to donate his car for the initial fabrication.
I'm sure the pricing would be the same.

Why dont you try to rally up your M119 boys and I will assist you guys any way I can.

In the meantime, hey Mike, why don't you upload a nice picture of some long tube headers to show everybody what we're talking about.

 

Did your Header guy ever build a set of Longtubes for the M119 R129 and how much did you see from the longtubes on your M113 R129?

:thumbsup:

 

I will post some pictures soon.

 

The headers will hopefully look similar to this picture. Unfortunately this will require removal of the primary cats, and some of you guys don't want to go that route.

 

Very nice picture...

I'm trying to visualize how the long tubes would be able to fit within the very limited space going down near the firewall, before they eventually bend near the floor board and link up to a collector

Do you think my KE-Jectronic would compensate for the lean mixture that will eventually result, due to the exhaust system upgrade? BTW, I will also upgrade to metal cat-cons, delete the resonator and fit after-market muffler, 2.5 inch diameter s.s. pipes before merging to a 3 inch diameter, fit x-pipe before the cat-cons and y-pipe (where the resonator used to be).

Thanks in advance

 

THOSE LOOK AWESOME! So, 30 HP is realistic for this mod alone?

 

THOSE LOOK AWESOME! So, 30 HP is realistic for this mod alone?

The answer to your question is: You better believe they will.
Let me fill you in on what we discovered:

Our stock headers are supposedly 2.25" to the secondary cats.
But after thorough examination of the manifold, we've discovered that the downpipes have pinched bends with diameters measuring a mere 1.9" on each side!

The new long tube headers, on the other hand, will funnel to a 2.5" collector and remain 2.5" straight to the secondary cats.

So, back to your Question: Are the estimated gains realistic?
Well, if you swap out 1.9" pipes with 2.5" inch pipes (per side) then the Answer: is yes, they are

Don't forget you will be removing the primary cats, which causes yet another major restriction in our exhaust system.

Headers is an exhaust moddification that have been proven to produce real gains, especially when they are made correctly.

These headers will be works of art. They will be made by a company who specialize in header fabrication for over 40 years. Trust me, I found the right guys for the job.

You need not worry, the gains are as good as there.:thumbsup:

 

I'm not going to pontificate here, but really, I don't have any interest in removing my catalytic converters. I'm in California and this would be a definite illegal move. It would never pass smog.

Nevertheless, if you could get a system to work WITH cats, and still get good HP gains, then that project would be interesting. One thing to consider though, is our drivetrain (especially the transmission) capable of handing extra HP/torque?

 

The 5 speed auto/slush box can handle obscene amounts of torque in the AMG V8K and V12TT cars with minor mods. An additional 30 HPs with the "standard" non-AMG trans......no big deal. An additional 100 probably wouldn't even matter. It is a very tough component.

(no idea about the older 4 speed if you have that trans)

 

they look awesome . can u get anything for the 300 sl 24v ??

 

It's my opinion that anything is possible if you're talking custom. Cost becomes a major factor if volume isn't sufficient to offset R&D. If I were you, I'd bank the $2k+ and save up for a SL500 or SL600. It is definitely a buyer's market for these cars!

acb

 

Well, you should already know what I think the idea of longpipes on your car, since I suggested that to you over a month ago...But as usual, you wanted to tell me I was wrong...

Here's my post #237 in your 'Let's Talk Power' thread:
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/2804335-post237.html

I don't know when people will figure out that I'm not just rambling off around here. I really do know a thing or two about cars and have modded a few too...

 

Here goes Mr. modder talking again, the problem was finding the right people to do the job and finding the right price, we finally found someone now, and I'm still worried they might run into problems on the driver's side.
You know a thing or two about cars and modded a few too but you still can't change your own spark plugs so do me a favor and spare us with your BS.

 

if any of the m119 guys want I will contact alexs guy bring my car to him and see about the fabrication to that model. dont know if i am ready to do it but lets see what he says.
BTW i have said it before and i will say it again Thanks alex and mike for doing the homework on this KILLER mod. my wife is gonna have a cow!

 

Thanks djblu :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:, I would really be in your debt for bringing it over to the guy, but I think we might have to do a head count, as it would be pricey if it's just the two of us for the M119.

May I add an input for the proposed system for us...in my car, the left down pipe crosses over to the right side and merges to the cat-con as one piece of 2.25 inch pipe...maybe it might be good if I fit an exhaust shield (original MB part) under the driver's side, and instead of crossing over to the right side, have a stainless steel x-pipe, were the two 2.5 s.s. pipes merge after the auto trans valve body pan, link up to an aftermarket metal cat-cons (2), lead up to a y-pipe (in-2.5 x 2pcs, put-3 inch single pipe leading to a s.s. muffler. I was planning to do this set-up with the original exhaust manifolds (to be jet hot coated). Just a concept thou...

 

This is a great idea, M119 owners! Who else is in? I can't be the "guinea pig" since I'm on the west coast.

On the 500E question (will it fit that as well?), my gut says (and could be wrong) that the chassis is different enough that it will not work, not to say that one can't be made, I just don't think we'll have interchangability between M119 129 and 124. I don't have a 124 laying around, so I can't tell you for sure.

 

OK, The gloves are on!!!!!!!!! LISTEN, I will only say this once, YOU KIDS STOP FIGHTING!!! Come-on, Lets act like ADULTS. Long tube headers will make MORE horsepower, They will LOWER bottom end torque{below3000RPM} Lets see a dyno sheet before and after the install with simular weather cond. and NO B.S. results, It would REALLY surprise me to see a 50 H.P. gain!!! I'm thinking 20-25H.P. MAX gain. Just My .02 worth.

 

OK, The gloves are on!!!!!!!!! LISTEN, I will only say this once, YOU KIDS STOP FIGHTING!!! Come-on, Lets act like ADULTS. Long tube headers will make MORE horsepower, They will LOWER bottom end torque{below3000RPM} Lets see a dyno sheet before and after the install with simular weather cond. and NO B.S. results, It would REALLY surprise me to see a 50 H.P. gain!!! I'm thinking 20-25H.P. MAX gain. Just My .02 worth.

These are some very good points, and yet more reason why I'd like to have Nick log on and help better explain it.

As far as gaining 50HP on our vehicles, don't forget that our cars are supercharged. The headers could lower boost anywhere between 1-2lbs. This will enable us to increase the boost on our superchargers, and get that 40-50HP gain. And I do plan on posting a dyno after the modifications are completed.:thumbsup:

I am curious about your low end torque concern, and am willing ask Nick to log on and address this concern, only if we have Mod compliance with my previous request.

 

For the record:
Mike and I have been hunting (for a year and 4 months) to find a fabricator willing, and able, to take on our long tube header project.
And after about a dozen shops told us "they're not gonna clear the steering column", we pretty much gave up on long tubes and concluded that they are not an option.

Chris, with all due respect, Mike and I have been scouting for a long tube specialist from before you even owned your Benz. This is why your 'trying to take credit' for the long tube suggestion was taken so poorly.

I think there are many members here that can benefit from our new acquaintance.
I want to ask Nick to create a screen name in order to directly address any and all questions and concerns that we will all have. But, quite frankly, I'm hesitant to invite him here while Chris hangs around looking for the next new argument.

To the Mods:
I'm going to ask that Chris not be allowed to interfere with this thread.
Here are the reasons for my request:
-he does not own an M113 or M119
-he has previously stated that he has access to a local fabricator whom he can go to for his own header needs,
-and, quite frankly, it doesn't seem like he has anything positive to contribute to the discussion.

This topic has already gained alot of interest, and I would prefer to not have it tarnished with any unnecessary, off-topic nonsense.

Thank you in advance.

 

Quite possibly the dumbest post I've read today. You just ruined a good thread.

 

Oh ya, one more thing: Since TT mentioned it, we do have a 1998 SL500 with an M119 in it as well...bought new in 1998 and still got it.

 

What I don't like is that we waste valuable effort reading a chit chat.
(I said this and then you said that.)

It reminds me when my sons were young and arguing.
I had to get between to separate them.

I do get tired and I don't bother reading this threads.

We are here to discus problems, help each other, and do some upgrades if we like to do
them.

I want to see what can be done, in a business like manner, joke around a little and have some fun in the process.

I don't think we should exclude a member for expressing his opinion as long and he does it in a civilized manner and he is not upsetting and making the other members bored.

Chris it is ok to practice law at school but don't bring that layer talk here.
You don't see it upsets the members?
We are not in court.
It will help you in life if you can get your hands a little dirty.
What are you going to do when you are on your boat and it brakes down in the middle of the sea, or in your car stranded at night in a bad dark area.
You are there with out help.
You think you can talk your way out of it?
You have good qualities but you are pissing them away with out even knowing it.
That saddens me.

Mike don't take things personally it is ok fore people to make mistakes.
Alex you are more of diplomat kind a guy, help a little.
Lets all water down the wine a bit.

At the same time we should not be abrasive with our moderators.
Lets not forget they have to put up with a lot, and they are trying their best.........
Did we have better moderators before them?
I don't think so.

For example I don't have the patience to put up with all this.
I did complaint about the other loooong thread.

I was afraid that this disease would spread and jump from thread to thread and it did.
That is why I suggested to vote, it is to heavy for the moderators to lift.
But again if we want, it can be fixed with out votes.
Logic my friends, logic, not feelings.

With out us the forum is dead.
With out the forum we are dead. Ok not dead but alone.

Regards.
aam.

 

Aam, my boats break regularly. Much more so than I would like, especially with people on board. That gets embarassing very fast. But I can fix them. It is not hard. 327s and 427s are simple engines.

Also, I can change my own spark plugs in the M120 too...and I would have, if I knew the dealer was going to charge me $300. I thought it would be $100 and save me some sweat, but I have learned that I should ask the price before I say "do something", next time. Live and learn. But don't think I can't do things myself...because I can.

As to Alex and Mike, the problem is, aam, these two don't want advice.

They just want to sit around and give a boring list of a bunch of modifications that are nothing special, considering all they really did is make a jerry-rigged version of a 55k motor, but based on an M113 block. FWIW, I'm going to laugh when they start hearing knocking and strange noises and it turns out that the rings and other internals are shot thanks to 8+psi boost, aggressive a/f maps, etc. etc....not that I suspect they will post here about that.

Me, I prefer to just shell out the extra money up front and buy an R129 that is already 400hp stock, and can be made even more powerful with just a few very simple mods, and will still run like a swiss watch without needing a rebuild every 50k miles. But I guess I am the crazy one...

Even with all that said, I tried to give Alex and Mike good advice on how to do something that is better than what they had already decided to do about headers. Any idiot can look in an M113 engine bay and see there is enough room for a set of nice longpipes. But because that was different than what they already had in mind, they just wanted to argue with me and tell me my idea is stupid, and that it can't be done. Then later, they end up doing what I told them to anyway, but still want to call me stupid. Well, it's one thing or it's the other, you know? You can't have it both ways...

And so that is what offends me. I am not being a "lawyer". Just trying to help two other car fanatics. But they don't want help. They just want everyone on a public forum to sit around telling them how great their ideas are. Well, sometimes they are good and sometimes they aren't. And when they aren't good, they don't want to hear about it...

So what is the point of all this then? Why even post these threads?

 

Look, Mike and I celebrated Easter yesterday and had a few too many, so our ability to cope with Chris's "I told you so" attitude was near impossible.

Chris, your assumption that you were the first to bring up long tubes is just foolish. And no, its not as simple as just picking up a phone book.

You do not know the extent of our research in this field, so please do not attempt to reap credit for MY new thread. Lets not forget something, I found the specialist willing to do the job... not you.

BTW, you should go back and re-read aam's advice, it was very good.

Xpristos Anesti everyone.

 

More BS.

As is obvious from your previous posts, which I have already quoted and are right there in black and white for everyone to read, you didn't even start looking for longpipes until after I suggested it. You were just shopping around for shorties, and didn't want to listen to me when I said longpipes were the way to go from the start.

And if you had bothered to ask me, I would have referred you over to VRP who can do custom work for cheap, or to my friend in tampa, or to any of the AMG specialists of which there are many. All they need is the exact dimensions of your current headers, and how much room in the engine bay they have to work with, and they will really go to town for you...most of these guys do some beautiful work. If you had listened to me back then, and bother to ask for my recommendation for a fabricator, you would probably already have your headers by now! LOL...

But you never asked, you just replied that lonpipes were "not possible" and went on to tell me how I was wrong, etc. You then went looking for shorties. Your posts make all of this clear...it's hardly a "he said/she said" thing, because you can just go right back to the "let's talk power" thread, where you describe your search for short headers, and argue with me that longpipes would never work.

So gimme a break. Yes, you ARE coming back and using an idea that I suggested over a month ago and could have helped you with, but that you dismissed as stupid and impossible at the time, and now you still want to be rude to me when I point it out! Amazing!

You guys are something else...

 

the way i see it is who the f*%k cares who brought it up and y its important who knows. I saw that post and was like who cares. The best part is that its being done. The best part of a team and that is how i look at this group is there is no "i" here. Everything alex and mike do is all available to each and every forum member. They give away their ideas and hard work for free READ EVERY MOD AND THEY ASK AND WORK TO GET EVERY PERSON THAT WANTS TO BE INVOLVED INVOLVED. Even giving of their time. Take a visit some day to the track or be invited to spend some time with them. Or have mike do a little work on your car. U just dont have people like that these days. In my eyes never get into a shouting match about whos idea it was. Screw it just get back to the reality of long tube headers. If you dont have anything good to say dont say anything at all.

 

UPDATE:
I've already ordered a new M113 stock manifold in order to begin fabrication of the new 1 piece flange's we will be using for our long tube headers.

Attention all M119 owners:
If I see enough interest in long tubes from you guys, then I'll buy a new M119 stock manifold and create your flanges as well.

I'll still need a local member's car in order to create the first set.

So, let me know what you guys come up with, and I'll do my best to accommodate you guys as well.

 

this is too cool! Yes i now remember mikes comments. Thanks for wackin me over the head

 

OK guys, heres an update on the header development:

I spoke to Nick today and he is sending me back the stock manifold that I originally sent to him.

He is commencing the fabrication of the new one-piece flange, and will be making enough flanges for 5 cars.
So, whoever is interested in these headers, nows the time to step up and mention it (even if your kinda iffy about them).


Let me tell you what we've learned about the stock manifold (header).

The Stock Manifold:
Upon thorough examination of the 1999-2002 stock manifold, we've discovered that:
-each of the ports measure 1.35"
-and the stock collector measures 1.65"

Now, here's a brief description of the new headers dimensions.

The New Headers:
-The new collector we're going to use will be 2.25" (which is the dimension of our stock exhaust pipe's)
-Nick suggests we make the new header's ports 1.65" (to stay consistent with the diameter of the head ports)

So here's the direct comparison:
-Your collector will go from 1.65" to an optimal 2.25"
-and each port will go from 1.35" to an optimal 1.65"
Fact:

What all this means is that these stock manifolds are very detuned. But the good part is that theres a lot of power potential.

After seeing first hand how congested our manifolds are, Nick feels confident that the N/A applications will see an increase of at least +25rwhp +25rwtq (30HP+TQ)


Let me know what you guys think. I would like to hear some feedback on this.
And feel free to ask anything you want. Mike and I will do our best to answer any and all your questions or concerns.

 

Before I return the manifold, I'll post some pictures of it to better explain my previous post.

 

1999-2002 SL500 Stock manifold

Well here it is.. the 1999-2002 SL500's stock manifold (broken down)

Pic 1: The manifold
This is just a profile picture showing the bends needed for it to clear the steering column on the driver's side.

Pic 2: The collector
This is the part of the manifold that connects to the down pipes. Its stock diameter is roughly 1.65".
The new collector will measure 2.25" (same as the downpipes).

Pic 3: The exhaust ports
This picture shows the outer port diameter being approximately 1.68"

Pic 4: The exhaust ports (part 2)
Heres a second pic. This one shows how the inner part of the port actually tapers. This narrows the inner diameter to roughly 1.47"
The new port diameters will be 1.68" straight through.

What this all means is that this is a very congested, and de-tuned manifold.
The new ones gonna be sick!

 

My car's going on the lift today (my project was delayed due to high volume).

They will remove the manifolds later today in order to determine the best configuration that will clear the 1999-2002 applications.
I will soon know what the final product will resemble (long tube, short tube, shorty, log, etc).

In the meantime, those who are interested should chime in or PM me so I can get an idea of how many headers to order.

I'll keep you posted.

 

****MAJOR UPDATE****

I just went by the headers shop today to see how they were progressing and GUESS WHAT?????

R129 M113 HEADERS ARE FINALLY FINISHED!!!!!

I was so happy to finally see a finished product. Alex's car will be finished next week and my car is going in next.

The fabricator needs to know if he should make more than 2 sets, so I know some of you were interested, now it's the time to act guys!!!

Here are some pictures, i will have more next week when they will be installed on Alex's car.

 

The fabricator needs to know if he should make more than 2 sets, so I know some of you were interested, now it's the time to act guys!!!

Mike, before people get carried away with the photos of the very nice looking headers and your kind offer to participate, should we not wait for for verified performance gains from the custom built headers against stock headers ?

 

WOW ZEEE!!!!! UN FRIGGIN REAL. TOTALLY off the hook. I cant wait to see those babies in that compartment. Looks like a tight squeeze. A MOD an r129 most likely never thought it would see.

 

:thumbsup:

looking good guys...........glad to finally see a finished product..........Im sure you will notice a big difference!

can i again suggest you do a tune once they are installed to get the max benefit out of them.........

keep us updated!