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Visual indication of timing chain stretch

11K views 128 replies 12 participants last post by  Elmer Fudd 
#1 ·
Digging deeper into my timing issue, took off the cam cover and measured the chain stretch. What do you think, too much?
Pelican parts how to guide states "When the crankshaft is at TDC "0", the timing marks on the cam stands must never be early, however they should be right on or slightly late" which is true on this case but I don't know how "slightly" is slight enough
Cam is the passanger side bank. I painted the 0.0 mark with white paint
Thank you all
 

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#3 ·
There are degree markings on the ballancer, you should be able to read them when clean. From memory the timing should be adjusted if more than 8 degrees off and the offset could be different on the two cams. Usually the passenger cam is worst, and this can be corrected using two offset Woodruff keys available from the dealer.
My passenger cam was 10+ degrees off, and after changing chain, tensioner, sliders it was still 6 degrees off whilst the driver side was 0, used two 6.5 Woodruff keys. Noticed an improvement in low RPM torque.
 
#6 ·
Yes, it is not possible to know the offset ahead of time, so I just ordered the range. Had not realised I needed two for the RHS cam, so back to the dealer again. It is not obvious that Woodruff keys have been installed, so if you don't know the history of the car, verify this.
Have later learned that there is a replaceable black "washer" for the RHS bank that should be stamped with the new cam timing mark when using Woodruff keys.
 
#7 ·
I've just got the rockers off on mine

( it's a grab it when I can kind of job, a few hours at a time) and both my cams are spot on at tdc. So the new sprockets should echo that when I install them, or am I in for a surprise?
 
#11 ·
( it's a grab it when I can kind of job, a few hours at a time) and both my cams are spot on at tdc. So the new sprockets should echo that when I install them, or am I in for a surprise?
Doubt much change if any. If there was a slight change my bet is that it would still be well within spec. Just take your time and mark the chain and old sprocket and then match that position with the new sprocket.
 
#9 ·
i've heard the 'death-rattle'

for a good long time on cold and warm start-up, and I have gone and bought all the bits in any event. the chain was last done 70000 miles ago, and i suspect the tensioner is the culprit, but as they say, I'm bollocks deep into this already, I might as well go most of the hog. ( not doing the lower guides, just the top set)
i am finding it therapeutic so far.:smile
 
#12 ·
for a good long time on cold and warm start-up, and I have gone and bought all the bits in any event. the chain was last done 70000 miles ago, and i suspect the tensioner is the culprit, but as they say, I'm bollocks deep into this already, I might as well go most of the hog. ( not doing the lower guides, just the top set)
i am finding it therapeutic so far.:smile
If you've not done the upper guides yet, when you get them loose then pull them out slowly. I used a pair of long surgical clamps to do it. I only mention this as I had one guide that had actually broken at the pin and was in three pieces! Luckily I was about to fit the pieces together and find that I had got everything. When I started to pull the guide and only the top half came out many poos came out :eek

I found the job okay too. Just a matter of paying close attention to what you are doing.
 
#13 ·
I think i have found the culprit

I've been at this for four hours now, and only just managed to get one of those pesky pin guides out. But, before, investing all that time, I removed the old tensioner. I can quite easily compress the plunger between middle finger and thumb, and I have no grip strength!!!! On the new one, I can't budge it at all.
The guides just look a bit browny-coloured, the sprockets and chain don't look bad at all, and I bet the rattle is due to that tensioner.
Do I quit while ahead, replace just the tensioner, remantle everything and wait another 30000 to do the rest. Or carry on getting wiggy ?
 
#17 ·
I've been at this for four hours now, and only just managed to get one of those pesky pin guides out. But, before, investing all that time, I removed the old tensioner. I can quite easily compress the plunger between middle finger and thumb, and I have no grip strength!!!! On the new one, I can't budge it at all.
The guides just look a bit browny-coloured, the sprockets and chain don't look bad at all, and I bet the rattle is due to that tensioner.
Do I quit while ahead, replace just the tensioner, remantle everything and wait another 30000 to do the rest. Or carry on getting wiggy ?
Look mate, keep at it. You can do it. You have already got it apart! Why not do it and have the piece of mind that you know it is done and done right. Just hold the chain so it does not slip and go for it! Pin wise some will sort of spring loose with a snap. Many have done with homemade tools. I just bought a proper puller off ebay. Was cheap as chips. Has a bit of a relief for those areas that are not flat. Works a treat and pulls the pins no bother.

On the sprockets, do them. You have them already. Just mark the chain and old sprocket so you can match the old sprocket to the new one and mark it in the same spot. Then just install the new one aligning the marks so it goes on the same. I swapped in new SWAG sprockets after I did the chain. Just looking at the old ones on the car I could not tell they were worn. Once doing the marks to the new one you could though.

Even if the chain was done at 70k, do a new chain. You are there, you have the part, just do it. Why rip all down again to have to do the chain?

You can do it. Do a search on here for timing chain. MANY of us doubted ourselves in being able to do the job. We researched here, printed out posts, tips and how to articles. Also many probably watched panzerpuff's YouTube video (there is another that is on there that gives some tips too). In the end, many did the job themselves successfully. You can too. Not everyone on this site is a master mechanic, but all are enthusiasts. If you get stuck, can't find the answer with a search, then just ask. Loads done the job and very willing to help. Just take your time and keep tension on the chain so it does not slip.
 
#16 ·
that's a nice piece of kit

no doubt about it. He doesn't ship to the UK though. My home made puller worked okay with the inner left guide lower pin, but I'm having the devil of a job getting it to seat squarely on the other guide pins, which don't have much flat clearance around them.
I think i might be testing **** sapiens mechanicus-domesticus' capacity for tool making. starting with a trip to the engineering supply shop tomorrow am. They always have things to inspire.:grin

I'm torn fellas. I don't like to give up easily, but I do know when to pick a fight and who to pick it with. The sprockets look fine, the timing is dead right, so no stretch, and I have a failing or failed tensioner. I'm going to check all the previous owner's paperwork and doings to see exactly when he had it done. If it is 70,000 or less, and I can't get any removal tool satisfaction, I might go for discretion and not valour.:crying
 
#18 · (Edited)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-...hash=item51e52c8c17:m:mr0C9Aa7I7IovdFTOVBhlew

I assume it is the same as the one I used. Looks the same. Guess always check first.
US based, but found him on ebay UK. Ship a bit steep, but gives you a part number and maker. Maybe do a search for it available there. Worse comes to worse you can maybe get one from the SL Shop. Somewhere there has to have them. Worth every penny, at least to me. If you can get there to save the ship from the US all the better.
 
#19 ·
alright already, you convinced me

if you ever give up whatever it is you do to earn a crust, think of motivational speaking.
Buggered if I can find the reference to timing chain, but this has so obviously not done 140k+miles w/out replacement that I wasn't imagining it. I did find a receipt for a new water pump at 118,00, so i'll leave that off my list.

I'll take the one guide pin i did remove down to the engineering shop tomorrow. and maybe all my removed bolts, and match up some nice shiny new ones for those.

sorry i wavered chaps, i sensed an easy solution. A lesser man would just have taken off the alternator, pulled the tensioner, slapped his thigh, fitted a new one and gone on his way.:eek

a few shots of the work in progress.
 

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#22 ·
if you ever give up whatever it is you do to earn a crust, think of motivational speaking.
Buggered if I can find the reference to timing chain, but this has so obviously not done 140k+miles w/out replacement that I wasn't imagining it. I did find a receipt for a new water pump at 118,00, so i'll leave that off my list.

I'll take the one guide pin i did remove down to the engineering shop tomorrow. and maybe all my removed bolts, and match up some nice shiny new ones for those.

sorry i wavered chaps, i sensed an easy solution. A lesser man would just have taken off the alternator, pulled the tensioner, slapped his thigh, fitted a new one and gone on his way.:eek

a few shots of the work in progress.
Sorry, fixed the link to the correct puller. Don't know how I got that other listing. Some sort of user error trying to use a tablet to post with I guess.

Looks like you've made good progress. Pin wise I just cleaned any gunk off mine and reused them. Only thing I did was to make sure to keep them sorted so they went in the same spots.

Just for fun, I found the pic of the horrible guides out of mine. LOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGG overdue. Notice the wonderful 3 part one! That should give you motivation to do yours! :wink
 

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#21 ·
I'm looking at the color of those chain guides (although not the best resolution) and I think they need to be replaced now.
What's the hesitation on the $22 USD pin puller? The Ebay auctions I can see from here ship worldwide... Mercedes Chain Rail Pin Puller Engine Timing Tools
I found a pair of 2 degree offset woodruff keys in my parts piles that I purchased from OEdiscount new and never used; if anyone needs 2 degree keys for less than half of what I paid for it, it is yours for $10 paypal. Good luck.
 

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#23 ·
ken, I'm not scared of spending $22

I'm looking at the color of those chain guides (although not the best resolution) and I think they need to be replaced now.
What's the hesitation on the $22 USD pin puller? The Ebay auctions I can see from here ship worldwide... Mercedes Chain Rail Pin Puller Engine Timing Tools
I found a pair of 2 degree offset woodruff keys in my parts piles that I purchased from OEdiscount new and never used; if anyone needs 2 degree keys for less than half of what I paid for it, it is yours for $10 paypal. Good luck.
https://youtu.be/7DQdGlSLMLM
It's the two weeks to get here from the good old US of A that's bugging me. I'm on leave now, and even if every pesky guide pin takes me four hours, I'll still have them out before the tool arrives. There isn't one to be had in the Uk for love, nor money. ( I only tried money so far:devil).
I'm going to ask my mechanic to rummage around in his tool kit ( oooh Matron) to see if he has a small slide hammer that I might borrow. and bought a couple of shaft collars at the engineering shop today. I might make progress with those. I have your youtube video cued up every time I go to the garage Ken, I'm gong to make you rich beyond your wildest dreams....:wink
 
#24 ·
A slide hammer could work, but you'd have to watch for clearance. I'd definitely have the radiator pulled out (if not already) before I used one so as not to cause accidental damage.

I tried having a quick search in England for the same sort of puller and could not find easily either. Looks like theSLshop site is geared more toward parts. Not to say they may not have something as I did not telephone them. Amazon UK did not come up with anything although there are a number of Mercedes tools etc on there. Seems strange not found it yet as it is a useful tool. A slide will work, but to have this tool allows easy extraction even in tight space.

As a note, could you not maybe get a cheap deep well socket and grind part of the lip off of it so it is very much like the tool we all keep harping on about? Might give you similar results/ability. Just a matter of depth. I'll have to relook at mine to see if that is feasible as far as a suggestion :grin If needed I can try and measure the extractor I have to give you specs so to speak. Just a thought.
 
#25 ·
Looked at my tool (helloooo) and you could rig something together to work with a deep socket and probably a long bolt with nuts and washers. The tool itself is threaded all the way through the outer cylinder of the main body. I suppose it would give it good strength, but again, I would think a deep socket, relieved on one portion could maybe work. If you want to get detail on the tool I can take some pictures for you if you like and post them later today.
 
#28 ·
Panzerpuff Interesting. I'll claim that was the issue with my post too!
Even though I was posting while sitting on the patio with the smoker going doing a load of ribs. Oh, and drinking margaritas..........


Checked my link just now and working correctly so guess we both got there in the end. :grin

Still hard to believe that no one in the UK is selling the little pin extractor tools. Searched trying to help and could not find anyone. Granted I spent only maybe 10 minutes, but you would have thought somewhere like Amazon UK would have had them and could ship them out quick.
 
#29 ·
Chaps, all this help is embarassing me

and it goes to show that good people still walk the face of the earth...and they own SL's.:smile
I had another small victory yesterday, I used one of the kids' bike spanners ( or it could have come with the washing machine...who cares) to level the playing field and set up nice and square my little (external 13mm drive 1/4-sized) 13mm bolt-through socket-based puller worked a treat, pulling it nearly all the way out. I also had some 6mm threaded bar, so I cut myself about 15 cm of that., locked a nut onto one end, slid on several gradually bigger washers, and put an old socket over it ( I have a 32mm one to use as a last resort). I threaded it into the pin, and presto-chango, one mini, lightweight slide hammer. One good whack of the socket along the thread and the guide popped out its last few mm. ( suitable radiator protection precautions were taken).
Today i went to the seaside with the kids, came home , went to the car parts shop along the road, and 'invested' ÂŁ2.80 in a Laser 14mm thinwall chrome vanadium spark plug socket, matt finish. one hour later, I had cut off the bi-hex casting to get to the thicker and stronger part of the socket, and filed off about 1/3 of the circumference at an incident angle of about 60 deg. Cleaned it all up, took off the burrs. made sure it sat square, stuffed in my 6mm bolt puller shank thing, and tried it out on guide pin no3. 5 mins of mild exertion and some satisfying creaking noises, and out it came.
I think i might have this one sussed.
Thanks for the input gents, pictures at eleven.
I'm off to watch Ken's video again.:devil
 
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#30 ·
Ken,

I contacted EWK directly, very helpful too. 10-15 days standard delicery, $15, 5 days DHL $30. plus a day or two in customs. On the back burner if I need it.
 
#32 ·
well, I watched Ken's video again

and I can see the front end of his cylinder heads are different to mine. If mine were like that, I'd have had hardly any trouble with the guide pins. anyway, all set or my next bout of pin removal, probably tomorrow.
My guide, ( the one I've been able to remove) looks just about the same as yours Ken. pretty brown, but not too groovy.
 
#33 ·
Elmer: Thanks so much for the play by play. The color and groovy wear are just symptoms. Apparently the real problem with these guide rails is they get brittle with heat and time. So even a medium brown colored and lightly grooved rail could be extremely brittle and susceptible to breakage. There is a member here (I forget who) that took a hammer to his old part and shattered it. So we are all pleased that you have figured out a way to pull those pins and get the peace of mind of having fresh rails guiding your chain.
 
#34 · (Edited)
I took a hammer to one of my guides. I was surprised how easy it shattered into about 4-5 pieces (was not able to find all the pieces afterwards). There was absolutely no flexibility in the guide, almost like glass. The guides were original to the car - 86 560sl with 47k miles.
My advice:
If you own or thinking about purchasing a low mileage R107 with a V8 change the guides (unless you have documentation that they were changed recently). If you can do the work yourself it is a about $120 in parts, if not it will cost in excess of $1000.
 
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