Bandit
You beginning to make more sense than Aard and Stu combined. I am sorry that I did lumped you together with them before. You were not blindly following the book like they do, you did do some thinking and questioning on your own.
dude! are you and idiot! or are you just taking me for one!
the proof is no such thing.
its a vague statement, that is "proven" by another vague statement... none of which can be verified as such..
and PROVEN? in the same fucking book?
that's called circular logic.
example:
I say that my mercedes went 200,000 miles without an oil change.
you ask for proof.
I say that I wrote every oil change down.
and I don't have an entry for oil changes.
hence. it's the truth
do you follow the logic?
or.. no.. sorry.. no logic or critical thinking in your head....
Read what Jesus said and his apostles and decide for yourself. (No one comes to the Father, but by me) The books are quick reads. John will take you all of an hour, unless you want to dig deeper.
As I just mentioned, Greek language and writings have not changed in the 2000 yrs since the origin. (mainly changes in Greek are slang terms or word references no longer used) Cross reference Jesus with secular, historical, and archeological writings as well as the prophetic from the Old Testament.
Good reference and a quick read. Josh McDowell, "Evidence for the Resurrection", obtained through Josh.org Or another writer Lee Strobel.
McDowell will give you so many references you won't know where to start.
No Dude. I don't get angered over this stuff, or I wouldn't be here.
aard
On Mr McDowell:
Josh McDowell's Charade (1982)
Gordon Stein, Ph.D.
[NOTE: The following article is copyright by Gordon Stein and is reproduced with his permission.]
Josh McDowell is one of the most popular writers that fundamentalist Christianity has. He is also one of the least trustworthy. Almost nothing he says in his books (e.g., Evidence That Demands a Verdict) has been researched at more than the most superficial of levels. Perhaps it is that very sloppiness that makes his books popular with lazy students who don't want to be confused with a lot of facts. They want simple answers, even when there aren't any.
McDowell has produced a leaflet called A Skeptic's Quest , which ought to alarm all real skeptics. In it, he tells how he became a Christian. His story may be typical of how a person becomes a fundamentalist Christian. Especially interesting is how little real scholarship or investigation is required. If his conversion is typical, then we can learn a lot from it.
It seems that McDowell was a self-proclaimed "skeptic" during his undergraduate days. He became impressed with a small group of students whose lives seemed to have purpose. Those students were, of course, fundamentalist Christians. Obviously, what the purpose of their lives was that McDowell didn't have in his life, didn't seem to matter much to him. Any purpose seemingly would do. He interacted with the students and was given the challenge "to examine intellectually who Jesus Christ was" Of course, if he had tried honestly to do this, he would have come up dry, because outside of the New Testament itself, nothing is known of Jesus Christ.
The way in which McDowell came up with exactly the opposite conclusion, namely that belief in Jesus was intellectually correct, is interesting. It shows how faulty reasoning can easily lead one astray. McDowell decided that to disprove the intellectual validity of Jesus be had to 1) demonstrate that the New Testament was not historically reliable, and 2) since every-thing in Christianity was based upon Jesus' resurrection, all he had to do was prove that the resurrection never took place. Of course, the fact that it is logically impossible to prove that an event never took place didn't bother McDowell. He came to the incredible conclusion (on the basis of a faulty examination of the faulty evidence) that "the resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the best established events in history, according to the laws of legal evidence" The fact that none of the "evidence" could have been admitted into a current American court under any of the ordinary rules of evidence seems not to bother McDowell.
To establish the first point above (upon which the second point depends), McDowell says he relied upon three basic tests: 1) the bibliographic test (he says this evaluates how many manuscripts you have, but this is really only one part of that test), 2) the internal evidence test, and 3) the external evidence test. Let us take each of these in turn.
The bibliographic test for a manuscript in reality is 1) can we trace the manuscript back to the original in an unbroken chain?, 2) how many copies of the manuscript are there?, 3) how closely do the copies agree?, and 4) do we have any (or all) of the manuscript in the handwriting of the purported author? In reality, the New Testament flunks badly tests number 1) and 4). We have a 300+ year gap between the first entire Gospel manuscript and the time at which it was supposed to have been written. In addition, we have no manuscript in the handwriting of the purported author. In fact, we don't even know who the authors of the Gospels were. Remember, it's the Gospel accordng to Mark, Luke, Matthew, or John. This means that it's only an attribution, but not an established fact that anyone named that actually wrote a word of any Gospel.
McDowell seems incapable of reasoning. He claims that there are 14,000 or 26,000 manuscripts of the New Testament. So what? What we need is not thousands of manuscripts from the Middle Ages (which is when most of these were written), but two or three from the exact time that Jesus supposedly lived and died. We have none until at least 40-60 years later (that is none was written down until then, but things remained in an oral tradition form), and we have no copies of any Gospel until the Codex Sianaticus of 350 A.D., more than 300 years later.
Next, we must realize that because of both the unknown authors, the 40-60 year gap, and the 300 year gap to a complete Gospel text, we do not have reliable eyewitness testimony in the Gospels. Once you realize this, any attempt to document the life of Jesus or his purported resurrection (the Gospel accounts, in addition, conflict with each other), as reliable history becomes impossible. McDowell has committed an intellectual travesty by claiming the evidence is overwhelming (it is overwhelmingly negative for the resurrection of Jesus. Worse, McDowell has passed off this travesty upon unsuspecting college students, who don't know enough to see through his inadequacies as a scholar. When a group is as intellectually bankrupt as the fundamentalists seem to be (which of them has denounced McDowell for his inadequacies?), then we know that what they are pushing as their beliefs are unjustified.
To me you are all making it up as you go. Buddha and many others have done the same.
Can't do that with God. I am referencing one of the earliest recorded philosophies which has been tried and true over 4000 yrs. I don't want to take the time to subvert or change it.
Some will argue it has been changed, and maybe miniscule portions have been. Regardless it has played out quite well, and tested out as quit accurate from the origins.
Thousands of scholars have tried to subvert it. The worst was a ~500 yr period where the "church" tried to hold it back from being used freely by it's parishioners, using it for financial and political gain. It was regained and the word got out again.
So to intertwine it as you folks are preferring to do is (to me) sad. You are trying to twist it to match your own personal agenda, desire or feel good use.
You all are also trying to outthink God. Good luck on that one. As I posted in the past, "If one neuron from God's brain was placed in your head , your head would asplode!"
How's that for a metaphor?
aard
You might want to wander back an additional 1000 years if you want to reference "one of the earliest recorded philosophies which has been tried and true".
For bonus points answer this: Judaism is to Christianity as Hinduism is to ________.
Bantism?
Listen German, I am not making anything up. It's been in the writings since the beginning.
Standard commonly accepted Christian belief by 2 to 3Bill people (minimum).
aard
Umm 2Billion by the latest count, but then again my parents and I are still counted on the rolls of each and every church of which we have been members so that is 2,000,000,000 -10. Thank goodness we are the only error in all of Christianity.
And who knew there was a World Christian Encyclopedia?
Bandit
You beginning to make more sense than Aard and Stu combined. I am sorry that I did lumped you together with them before. You were not blindly following the book like they do, you did do some thinking and questioning on your own.
He's human.
__________________ Stereotypes are never 100% false!
"Life is fraud when your fake, but it's so hard when your real."
"A lie has speed, but truth has endurance." -Edgar J. Mohn
"What up black cop, every brother ain't no brother." -Styles P
"Fat people on elevators are self explanatory and count as two for safety reasons."
"...and if you're going to die for a cause let be cause I was high, and they tried to take the Benz!"
Bandit
You beginning to make more sense than Aard and Stu combined. I am sorry that I did lumped you together with them before. You were not blindly following the book like they do, you did do some thinking and questioning on your own.
a good observation, which gives Aard and Stuie a little more 'inspiration' to come back with more inanity and false 'facts' to trumpet their fairytale book.
I wonder what they'll say about dope's post ^^^
"lies, lies! and more lies!!"
to be continued.
don't you think this thread should be moved to the 'humpty dumpty' box in Disney?
For some twisted reason do you think I should be more PC and deny the first commandment? Should I distort my religion and be more inclusive?
no need to distort.
it's been re-written.
lost, then found.
translated, again and again.
lost some books, then gained others.
twisted to meet the needs of the people of the time.
reprinted in 1,000's of versions.
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"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" - Seneca 
He's human.
lies!
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