The two ACLU attorneys in Lexington are both retired Lt Colonels, one from the Marines and one from the Army. One [the Marine] has more medals than I can usually count because he is constantly gesticulating when in uniform and the other has a very nice presentation of medals that goes back from Viet Nam through Desert Storm.
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Originally Posted by Bruce R.
And which of those two gentlemen were directly involved in this debacle? My guess is that neither one would have touched it with a 10 foot pole.
That's the problem, where does it end? The monument was in place longer than the jerk that complained has been alive. One person is "offended" and the rest have to cater to that ONE individual? That is hard to swallow in what is supposed to be a democracy, of course if you can find a judge that sees things your way, things look different. You are aware that the ACLU always bring suit in areas where they know the judges are lean in their favor.
So you are telling me that you don't believe that two retired officers, with an assigned mission would fulfill that mission to defend the Constitution if fellow vets were on the opposition?
You obviously don't understand either the mission of the ACLU or the principles of military officers, retired or otherwise.
We have no way of knowing if this was just the first person that was offended or if it was just the first that has gone to court [those are two different things].
As for the ACLU bringing suit in areas where they know judges will lean in their favor, you might want to check out how cases are handled at a federal level and how they are rotated. With 20 years of Republican presidents in the past 28 years, the stack of federal judges that have been appointed by Republicans makes your "leaning" argument somewhat weak.
You truly are a DUMBASS! The Arlington National Cemetery IS A PUBLIC PARK, YOU MORON! It's under the direct oversight of the National Park Service and the U.S. Park Police patrol it! Look it up!
After biker posted a link to a snopes article about the headstones in Arlington cemetery, I realize what direction you seek to take this.
My point: The headstones in Arlington Cemetery have crosses on them. The cross is a CHRISTIAN symbol on a headstone displayed on PUBLIC property. So, since the ACLU seeks to go after a 75 year old war memorial displaying religious symbols on public property, why would you arrogant tools not go ahead and try for broke? After all, the only difference between the two is there's dead soldiers buried under the ones at Arlington.
As for your link, biker, I NEVER read or received an email about the ACLU going after the Arlington National Cemetery. My FIRST thought after seeing the War memorial story was that to be consistent, the ACLU would have to go after Arlington as well. Try as you might to disengage me with assumptions that I seen and believed a story about the ACLU going after Arlington markers, MY challenge still stands. I want all the chicken shit ACLU'ers to go after the headstones. I want to see the public tide turn more away from their favor and see those twats for what they are: TROUBLEMAKERS! The ACLU doesn't give one flying rats ass about civil liberties and if those guys had a hair on their ass, they'd try it.
And YOU, FTL, don't give one flying rats ass about civil liberties. You do what you do best and that is to cause trouble, That's all you're good for and that's all you've ever done. You should be the President of the United States of the Offended.
Actually Arlington is a Military Cometary, run by the Parks Department. And there are monuments to each and every religion, according to the wishes of the individual. Note that very important difference.
What pre football game prayer are you talking about? I don't recall ever seeing a prayer on Monday Night Football. If they are saying a prayer in the locker room before the game, who cares? half the players in pro and college ball are Muslim anyway, are they complaining?
We all get the public property and church and state thing. This particular case is just stupid, a cross in the middle of the desert is as unobtrusive as anything can get. It may technically be a violation (or not) but it shouldn't be an issue. The ACLU should have told the ass wipe who brought this to their attention to get a life, they have better things to do.
Go to any High School and many College football games in America, or at least the South and you will find a prayer at the beginning of the game.
So in your opinion adultery is relegated to only one political party?
Not from where I sit. I thought the use of the word "motherfuckers" was intended to be disparaging. Meaning you disapproved of being faithful to the woman who gave birth to your kids. If it was not intended to be disparaging, or like the Christian minister in Colorado who was recorded for a documentary describing how Christians fuck their wives more than anyone, only to be discovered to be paying some guy for homosexual services while taking drugs, it was only a bit of braggadocio, well, sorry, my mistake.
Vehicle: 2002 SLK 32 AMG, bone stock. 1987 190E 2.3-16 valve (destroyed). 1991 300CE, a work in progress.
Location: Near Washington, DC
Posts: 10,739
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
So you are telling me that you don't believe that two retired officers, with an assigned mission would fulfill that mission to defend the Constitution if fellow vets were on the opposition? It would appear that you have read the statement correctly. The question isn't about defending the Constitution, it's a question of removing a symbol of respect for fellow soldiers that has stood for 75 years because one person had a problem with its shape.
You obviously don't understand either the mission of the ACLU or the principles of military officers, retired or otherwise. I very clearly understand the mission of the ACLU, and that is to gain recognition for itself, and if you follow the money trail, gain cash flow for the ACLU. As to the principals of these two individuals, the fact that they are with the ACLU raises some questions right off the bat. If they have any scruples left at all, I doubt that they would go after this case.
We have no way of knowing if this was just the first person that was offended or if it was just the first that has gone to court [those are two different things]. I can agree with that, but the question remains, how is his "offence" greater than my (or may others) offence on having that symbol removed from its location because of one person.
Until you can show that there were MANY more people in the area that travel by and see that cross often enough to actually be "offended" by it, there is only one person complaining. One vs many and one wins?
As for the ACLU bringing suit in areas where they know judges will lean in their favor, you might want to check out how cases are handled at a federal level and how they are rotated. With 20 years of Republican presidents in the past 28 years, the stack of federal judges that have been appointed by Republicans makes your "leaning" argument somewhat weak. I'm sure you believe that, but if you think back, you might recall that Clinton fired all the Circuit Court judges he could, which was most of them, and replaced him with liberals. It was after all, in the news. I believe that might strengthen my argument some.
I am reasonably sure you also know there are judges and circuits that are very well known for their left leaning tendencies.
The Constitution says there must be a separation of Church and State. That means that there cannot be a State sponsored religion, it doesn't state that there cannot be any religion.
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Actually Arlington is a Military Cometary, run by the Parks Department. And there are monuments to each and every religion, according to the wishes of the individual. Note that very important difference.
Your attempts to spin this for anything other than it is makes for a weak argument. Can't you, for once, just utter the words, "You know, you're right' instead of getting out your liberal knife and spreading your oleo telling us it's butter?
The MILITARY is the U.S. government. The Arlington Cemetery is a National Park. If religious symbols are forbidden on public property, then in order to be consistent, the ACLU should go after the headstones and force the taxpayers to replace them. The reason why they DON'T is because they choose the battles they know they can manipulate and win and refuse to fight for those they know they're gonna lose. That doesn't sound like an organization that champions Constitutional rights. They champion public recognition for their own gain.
If civil liberties were their real agenda, where the hell were they when those 20 firefighters in New Haven got discriminated against?
The ACLU is a commie organization that seeks out and destroys every aspect of our Constitutional rights, one line at a time. The last time I checked, the BOR guaranteed us freedom of religion, NOT freedom from religion.
As for the ACLU bringing suit in areas where they know judges will lean in their favor, you might want to check out how cases are handled at a federal level and how they are rotated. With 20 years of Republican presidents in the past 28 years, the stack of federal judges that have been appointed by Republicans makes your "leaning" argument somewhat weak.
Give me a break, bear. You damn well know Bruce has a more than valid point. In my studies of law, law is all about precedent. You know as well as I that IF they succeed in removing THIS monument, they will use that precedent to go after other known 'violations' of religious expression on 'public property'. So, unless it is a higher court that the case is appealed to, courts in one district MUST rule in a manner consistent with their district counterparts. So, if a LIBERAL leaning court makes a ruling and a similar case is brought before a CONSERVATIVE leaning court, that conservative leaning court is obligated to rule in a manner consistent with the ruling handed down by the other court. This is why there is an appeals process. But the SCOTUS doesn't have to hear the case. They can either send it back down for further consideration by the lower court that originally ruled on it or refuse to hear it altogether resulting in the decision becoming rule of law.
The ACLU knows damned well if they can get a case in front of an activist judge, it will increase their chances of winning similar battles in other districts across the country that would be deemed 'conservative friendly'.
The ACLU is a commie organization that seeks out and destroys every aspect of our Constitutional rights, one line at a time.
This is ridiculous and extreme but at least understand the process: The ACLU is a commie organization that gets courts to seek out and destroy every aspect of our Constitutional rights, one line at a time.
The ACLU is a private organization free to pursue any agenda it wishes – they argue cases in the same judicial venues every other American is allowed to argue. If you don’t like what they’re doing exercise you right and fight them in court.
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The last time I checked, the BOR guaranteed us freedom of religion, NOT freedom from religion.
Check again, the First prohibits government involvement in the Establishment Clause while freedom of religion is addressed in the Free Exercise Clause. Courts decide where a given case falls between the two. For example, in Allegheny County v. ACLU (1989), SCOTUS ruled nativity scenes were a violation of the Establishment Clause. In Edwards v. Aquillard (1987) it was ruled creation science can not be a required subject as the state had a clear religious motive to require the course – violation of the Establishment Clause. With Church of Lukumi Babalu Ave., Inc. v. Hialeah (1993), however, the Court ruled the Free Exercise Clause was violated when the killing of animals as a religious sacrifice was banned by the city but the killing of animals for hunting/sport remained legal.
Courts decide, not the ACLU.
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1991 300 SE (w126.024/M103.981) 140,000 miles
Your attempts to spin this for anything other than it is makes for a weak argument. Can't you, for once, just utter the words, "You know, you're right' instead of getting out your liberal knife and spreading your oleo telling us it's butter?
The MILITARY is the U.S. government. The Arlington Cemetery is a National Park. If religious symbols are forbidden on public property, then in order to be consistent, the ACLU should go after the headstones and force the taxpayers to replace them. The reason why they DON'T is because they choose the battles they know they can manipulate and win and refuse to fight for those they know they're gonna lose. That doesn't sound like an organization that champions Constitutional rights. They champion public recognition for their own gain.
If civil liberties were their real agenda, where the hell were they when those 20 firefighters in New Haven got discriminated against?
The ACLU is a commie organization that seeks out and destroys every aspect of our Constitutional rights, one line at a time. The last time I checked, the BOR guaranteed us freedom of religion, NOT freedom from religion.
Bear has this correct. A memorial stone on a person's grave is their choice. Both my parents are buried there. No cross on their stone. The concept that the ACLU opposes the government completing its commitment to soldiers at the point of its final payment for their service by trying to disallow the individual having his or her gravestone reflect his or her religious belief is ludicrous. The individual graves are there to honor the individual's who served the country, and, while they are very identical looking from afar, up close they are as different as they need to be to identify the persons buried there and honor them for their service equally. Visit the place sometime. They don't put Christian markers on Jewish soldier's graves, so the ACLU will have no beef.
You all need to go back to the founding of this country and do your homework on where the "bill of rights "came from. It was taught in churches for a few decades before the fed govt adopted it, nearly word for word. This is true of many documents and goings on in early US history. It has only been since the 50's that things got questioned, but the documents haven't changed.
The English started war with the religious institutions when this country was founded as well. That was the Revolutionary War. Few people study what started it. It was religious oppression, and the English went after the clergy. They figured if they could kill off the clergy they would win. It spread into the US government fighting, since most of the govt officials were religious and many were clergy.
Move forward to today and the mindset of people has changed, but the origination of this country was fought by christians to found what we have, including documents. All of the sudden, after 150+ years of this country we re-diagnose what the documents mean??? Understand who and why they were written, rather than being simplistic about it.
Then you will see why some of us are offended at those who would not only suppress real history but also distort the documents meanings and origination. All because morals have deteriorated and a small percentage of non christians or other religious entities complain. In percentage, this country strongly claims christianity as their own(~70%).
Some of you want to change what was, and rewrite history.
The fight is on, and God is not pleased.
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