Jim
Emotion aside (and I really didn't enter into emotional banter except to spell out the facts here)
Some ACLU cases win, some lose. And I do believe the ACLU is agenda driven on many issues.
Much of it has to do with the amount of money poured into the fight . The constitutionality of it is apparently vague, or the christian sector could win none of them. It is expensive to fight the ACLU's financial war chest. Apparently the founders of the country had a differing idea of church/state, or there wouldn't be so many old monuments on public property displaying christian icons and sayings.
As I said, I wont engage in the constitutionality, but don't be so cut and dried. Saying that it is one way when some court findings differ with you. Some do not, however.
Jim
Emotion aside (and I really didn't enter into emotional banter except to spell out the facts here)
Some ACLU cases win, some lose. And I do believe the ACLU is agenda driven on many issues.
Much of it has to do with the amount of money poured into the fight . The constitutionality of it is apparently vague, or the christian sector could win none of them. It is expensive to fight the ACLU's financial war chest. Apparently the founders of the country had a differing idea of church/state, or there wouldn't be so many old monuments on public property displaying christian icons and sayings.
As I said, I wont engage in the constitutionality, but don't be so cut and dried. Saying that it is one way when some court findings differ with you. Some do not, however.
Aardvark
You clearly are unaware of the emotional content of your anti-ACLU frame of mind. The ACLU is definitely not sitting on a war chest that could compete with the war chest the Christians religious groups have - there is nothing like an ACLU donation program that is an institutionalized, once a week event on the scale of what the Christian organized religious groups have. To characterize their donated funds from ordinary citizens as a "war chest" is to imply it is a mighty and deep resource, which it is not. Read up on the organization and its funding: American Civil Liberties Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The ACLU takes all kinds of "sides" in cases I find irritating as well. SPAM is one we can all identify with - the ACLU is defending the position that restricting whatever kind of communication is a curtailment of free speech. What they do when they take these positions, even when they lose, is force the system to take a deeper look into the effects on civil liberties before they act than might otherwise be the case. For that I am grateful. It slows down mob rule.
^For the most part I don't like the ACLU's stand on issues, but I do see some good they have done. I think the bad outweighs the good, but that is my opinion.
This particular case (and many like it) is small town taking on a big legal firm with clout. This is tax dollars from the residents, through the town deciding we don't have the finances to go after it.
This was not a religious funded scenario. This is a sleepy financially destitute town, like many they attack across the country. An easy mark. Church/religious money doesn't enter in to this.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSmith
Did you actually say something here?
Jim
About as much as you did, only I didn't use as much band width.
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^For the most part I don't like the ACLU's stand on issues, but I do see some good they have done. I think the bad outweighs the good, but that is my opinion.
This particular case (and many like it) is small town taking on a big legal firm with clout. This is tax dollars from the residents, through the town deciding we don't have the finances to go after it.
This was not a religious funded scenario. This is a sleepy financially destitute town, like many they attack across the country. An easy mark. Church/religious money doesn't enter in to this.
Aardvark
Since the "problem" is characterized as an anti-Christian motivated group, why is it that the war chest of the Christian churches is not being tapped in these cases? Why won't the vast majority of Christian Americans, some of whom must be decent at practicing the lawyer profession, volunteer?
As I noted, even in the cases where the ACLU loses a court battle their role serves the advancement of our collective awareness of our propensity for dispatching the law and the Constitution, and ruling on gross plurality of opinion. Mob rule. So, I often disagree with the individual or organization the ACLU is representing, but often not the principle.
Let your mind be free of your prejudices and emotions. The ACLU is not any American's enemy. Jim
mcbear,
you say this:
"public property is not for any given group to have ownership or preference of, even if they are the "majority".
Then why is it we have a democracy here and not some other type of government a few would like?
The many lead the few and the few will follow or leave. When the many become Jewish or another of another faith, they too will lead. Till then ,it's Christianity that is the dominant religion. Get it? You are free to place your mreligious symbol alongside a cross if you so desire. Remember the freedom part of America? Don't forget it, because many have died so that we may enjoy it. Enjoy it while you have it. Because, I'm afraid, it won't be long before we give that away also.
Skip
We have a democracy where a MAJORITY VOTES for or against an issue. That is different than a statistical majority, which has been thrown around in this conversation.
If the Majority wants to change the Constitution, so be it. So far they have not changed the separation of church and state or redefined an establishment of a National religion. Until then, religious stuff on public property or at public events is skating on very thin ice.
I'm saving those for later. Role reversals can be very telling when the subject of individual liberties is the subject.
The ACLU is at its best when it takes on cases where an individual has truly been harmed, denied rights or due process. It is at its worst when it takes on cases for the purpose of sensationalism and inflammation. However, I don't recall the last time they were constitutionally incorrect, so even when I use the term "worst," they don't offend the libertarian in me.
There is a simple solution to this conundrum, the veterans who wish to maintain the monument should purchase it and the parcel of land it is displayed on, therefore making it private. It is quite likely it will cost less than their lawyers will charge them to lose this case. I expect, also, that they'll be able to secure sufficient donations from other Christians and Christian veterans to make the purchase.
That is the most logical choice, or put it in one of the many cemeteries that would be more than happy to accept a memorial.
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