Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
The two ACLU attorneys in Lexington are both retired Lt Colonels, one from the Marines and one from the Army. One [the Marine] has more medals than I can usually count because he is constantly gesticulating when in uniform and the other has a very nice presentation of medals that goes back from Viet Nam through Desert Storm.
And which of those two gentlemen were directly involved in this debacle? My guess is that neither one would have touched it with a 10 foot pole.
If they are actually ACLU attorneys I would bet you a burger and beer that you are wrong. The ACLU position on a case is based on whether the rights of larger groups of Americans are being threatened by a case, in the abstract, than the details of any particular case. You are still hung up on the particulars of this case and wish to dismiss the more abstract affront to the Constitution the situation represents. You want to argue an emotional case. The ACLU has washed away the emotion, which would include the emotions of the two medal wielding Lt. Colonels, in this case and has reduced it to the United States Government erecting a religious icon on public property at taxpayers expense. The case particulars, the emotional issues you argue, do nothing to dilute the basic affront to the principle of the government giving no endorsement to any specific religion.
ACLU fights for everyone's Constitutional rights. There is an old saying that says "your rights end where mine begin". It means that folks don't get to exercise their rights at the expense of others. When one set overshadows the rights of others, neutral wins.
That's the problem, where does it end? The monument was in place longer than the jerk that complained has been alive. One person is "offended" and the rest have to cater to that ONE individual? That is hard to swallow in what is supposed to be a democracy, of course if you can find a judge that sees things your way, things look different. You are aware that the ACLU always bring suit in areas where they know the judges are lean in their favor.
Our Democracy is tempered by the Constitution to moderate the propensity for mob rule. We have individual rights that trump simple majority decisions on specific subjects. This happens to be one of them. Because the government at times makes gross errors in respecting and observing those rights, like allowing white men to own black families and sell black humans like cattle, or denying women the right to vote, does not mean the error is somehow "grandfathered" and cannot be changed. Our history is uniquely marked by a people fixing such errors when they are brought to light. This problem will be resolved when we stop erecting icons of specific religions on publicly owned property - because once we stop, we won't have to have law suits that demand we take them down. As Ed suggested, someone needs to start a business going, buying land adjacent to such places where individual groups can erect whatever they might want to at their personal cost. Given how much bellyaching there is on this subject, it sounds like a very viable business. And neutral includes the escalation of name-calling.
Particularly if moderation agrees with the escalator....
I am not a fan of escalators. Was told as a small kid the end of the moving section where the steps retracted could grab a small child's toes and just grind their feet and legs up. Don't trust escalators for that reason.
As for name calling, you suck at it compared to others, so it is likely in your best interests not to engage.
Ed, you are still electing to "not get it." The ACLU selection criteria for cases deal more with a strategy to block paths for effectively abridging the rights of humans delineated in the US Constitution than the particular individual humans. It is the unfettered access to those rights they are defending and not the humans. When you associate the actual humans with the ACLU cases is when you get distracted by the cases.
If you sit back and examine the most effective way for the state to deny rights, you have to admit when a scumbag gets caught being a scumbag the emotional reaction of the masses is to have the scumbag fucked in the ass in public. If that is done with due process and according to law, meaning without deny the scumbag his or her rights under the Constitution, the state wins. If it is done by denying the person rights because he or she is an undeniable scumbag, all of us lose our rights and we creep towards mob rule, lead by people manipulating the emotional responses of the mob. The ACLU happens to take these cases, not because they are sensational and get a lot of press (which generally whips up the anti-ACLU attitude of the right wing nut jobs, which is not always in the best interest of the ACLU) but because it is exactly there, in those cases, where rights are being set aside while "eye for an eye" justice is about to be meted out by an emotionally, angry mob.
So, you will find that the ACLU will defend a scumbag defined as such by "lefties" and lefties will be pissed at the ACLU as well. All I can say is, if a scumbag is breaking the law or otherwise denying Americans their rights under the Constitution, we need to have the discipline to go after them within the law. If you want the ACLU to go away, see to it that the laws are interpreted according to the Constitution and enforced within the limits of that document.
Jim
No, I get it. It is why I wrote "However, I don't recall the last time they were constitutionally incorrect, so even when I use the term "worst," they don't offend the libertarian in me." Perhaps the preceding words about seemingly accepting some cases for sensationalism purposes hid that, but it is my conclusion they are typically correct in what they do.
I have sat back and reflected on things they do, especially after my initial reaction is more of a "wtf are they thinking?" It does take that reflection to conclude their objectives are noble.
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^ Jimmy, that is just so much BS, and you know it. More smoke and mirrors from someone that has to talk, but doesn't know what to say.
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We had a run in with a rep of the ACLU in our town for a cross on the top of a low water tower. Since a legal battle was eminent, the town backed down. This town has had that cross lit up for decades over the Christmas holiday. What the ACLU rep didn't realize is that we would get even. A Star was installed instead, and a local business man started mass producing the lit crosses for homes and businesses. Now in a town with ~5000 homes, a third of them have a cross lit up, and the businesses up town did the same. It's been that way since the run in 10 years ago. The town is lit up long before and after the holiday.
ACLU, We Got Ya!
Now many lawyers do this type of work free.
We had a run in with a rep of the ACLU in our town for a cross on the top of a low water tower. Since a legal battle was eminent, the town backed down. This town has had that cross lit up for decades over the Christmas holiday. What the ACLU rep didn't realize is that we would get even. A Star was installed instead, and a local business man started mass producing the lit crosses for homes and businesses. Now in a town with ~5000 homes, a third of them have a cross lit up, and the businesses up town did the same. It's been that way since the run in 10 years ago. The town is lit up long before and after the holiday.
ACLU, We Got Ya!
Now many lawyers do this type of work free.
Aardvark
No, the ACLU won a battle protecting the United States Constitution. It is good you think you won, too. That is what they call a "win-win" situation. One day you will realize that. Jim
We had a run in with a rep of the ACLU in our town for a cross on the top of a low water tower. Since a legal battle was eminent, the town backed down. This town has had that cross lit up for decades over the Christmas holiday. What the ACLU rep didn't realize is that we would get even. A Star was installed instead, and a local business man started mass producing the lit crosses for homes and businesses. Now in a town with ~5000 homes, a third of them have a cross lit up, and the businesses up town did the same. It's been that way since the run in 10 years ago. The town is lit up long before and after the holiday. ACLU, We Got Ya!
Now many lawyers do this type of work free.
Aardvark
No you didn't, dummy. The ACLU isn't interested whatsoever in religious displays on private property. You should include a little more brain food in your special diet.
__________________ "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful"- Seneca
I got the concept, Jim.
It backfired on them in multiplicity if the intent was to remove religious symbols, but they won regarding a cross on town property, which is (questionably) unconstitutional.
We could argue the point on constitutionality and founding fathers beliefs, but I won't waste yours or my time on it.
We had a run in with a rep of the ACLU in our town for a cross on the top of a low water tower. Since a legal battle was eminent, the town backed down. This town has had that cross lit up for decades over the Christmas holiday. What the ACLU rep didn't realize is that we would get even. A Star was installed instead, and a local business man started mass producing the lit crosses for homes and businesses. Now in a town with ~5000 homes, a third of them have a cross lit up, and the businesses up town did the same. It's been that way since the run in 10 years ago. The town is lit up long before and after the holiday. ACLU, We Got Ya!
Now many lawyers do this type of work free.
Aardvark
Which is all the ACLU wanted. If you actually believe you won by acquiescing to their request, you demonstrate no comprehension of the nature of the dispute.
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"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" - Seneca 
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