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We believe in free markets, individual liberty, private property and, most of all, strictly limited government.
--- Robert Levy
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
--- JFK
I try to stay out of these "debates" as it rarely changes the mind of non-believers, but in the spirit of the 4th of July - Those US citizens who are in favor of tossing aside religion as delusional rhetoric which has no place in Government, should make sure to throw out all references to religion. How about starting with "All men are created equal"?
Although it comes from The Declaration of Independence, it's religious in nature. The second sentence of The Declaration of Independence states:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Hmmm. Notice the 'C' in Creator is uppercase? Meaning God, correct? If that is too plain for the highly educated, ponder the fact that the document states men are "created". That logically implies there is a creator, as a creator is one who creates. I guess that means the Declaration of Independence has to go.
Taking it a step further, those who don't believe in a Creator, don't believe in creation, and therefore cannot possibly believe in the rights of something that doesn't exist. Of course there's problem of us being here. . . . . or do non-believers believe in creation without a Creator?
Makes sense to me.
Founders were not intent of basing a country on their particular individual religious beliefs, per se .
It is inherent in their thinking and processes , however. It is also inherent in the various writings and actions of the founders. And some founders had differing ideas but they appear to be in the minority. AND, back to the original subject of the post. WHY then are these symbols and artifacts found in the monuments as well as architecture throughout the early history of this country? Your pretense is it is now not allowed by constitutional jurisdiction, yet it was commonplace until the 1950's Your argument is weak and the physical evidence and documentation is more than obvious.
Fluffs your feathers, eh?
Aardvark
This has been explained several times. Americans used to find owning a black family and selling their children for profit, or breeding them like cattle to advance particular features found useful by the slave owners, was acceptable. Even though the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution suggested that was probably not a sound practice. It took time for the intent of the words that all men are created equal to be objectively compared to the basically accepted practice of slave ownership and the incongruity of the practices associated with slave ownership and those idealistic, revolutionary precepts of the nation's founding to become the focus of a civil war. The same with allowing women to vote.
You are correct when you state the overwhelming majority of Americans for a great deal of our history, were Christians. The practices of including symbols and icons of that faith in publicly owned and maintained facilities was allowed, not because it was thought to comply with the Constitution, but because the people in charge were insensitive to the views of very small minorities who likely had a daily struggle for survival to divert their attention from being offended by the symbols. Being ignorant of committing an affront to another person is not an excuse. Wishing to remain ignorant is just, well, ignorant. There are a lot more "other than Christians" with citizenship of the United States now, and they are speaking out more. To ignore their pleas for equality and respect is not much different than engaging in a civil war to preclude having to set your slaves free. To invent bullshit stories to justify ignoring our obligation to make the government of the United States blind to religion is subversive. Which is why I find you a dangerous religious fanatic. You will stop at nothing to justify whatever a Christian does in the name of Christianity.
We have been down this path many times. I oppose organized religion because of this exact issue. It is so easy to abandon the actual teachings of Christ in an attempt to "keep what is yours" as long as it involves complying with the Church's wishes or defending "your faith" against unprovoked assaults by the ACLU.
Marcus.
It's easy to pick and choose, isn't it.
My understanding is that the Declaration of Independence was taken from scriptural references, and taught in schools before it was adopted almost word for word.
Wether this is indeed true ore not, needs researched,(David Barton says yes) but even if not true the references and principles are truly christian ideals.
This has been explained several times. Americans used to find owning a black family and selling their children for profit, or breeding them like cattle to advance particular features found useful by the slave owners, was acceptable. Even though the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution suggested that was probably not a sound practice. It took time for the intent of the words that all men are created equal to be objectively compared to the basically accepted practice of slave ownership and the incongruity of the practices associated with slave ownership and those idealistic, revolutionary precepts of the nation's founding to become the focus of a civil war. The same with allowing women to vote.
You are correct when you state the overwhelming majority of Americans for a great deal of our history, were Christians. The practices of including symbols and icons of that faith in publicly owned and maintained facilities was allowed, not because it was thought to comply with the Constitution, but because the people in charge were insensitive to the views of very small minorities who likely had a daily struggle for survival to divert their attention from being offended by the symbols. Being ignorant of committing an affront to another person is not an excuse. Wishing to remain ignorant is just, well, ignorant. There are a lot more "other than Christians" with citizenship of the United States now, and they are speaking out more. To ignore their pleas for equality and respect is not much different than engaging in a civil war to preclude having to set your slaves free. To invent bullshit stories to justify ignoring our obligation to make the government of the United States blind to religion is subversive. Which is why I find you a dangerous religious fanatic. You will stop at nothing to justify whatever a Christian does in the name of Christianity.
We have been down this path many times. I oppose organized religion because of this exact issue. It is so easy to abandon the actual teachings of Christ in an attempt to "keep what is yours" as long as it involves complying with the Church's wishes or defending "your faith" against unprovoked assaults by the ACLU.
Jim
You started out good, then rolled into a paranoid, narcissistic rant about Aardvark being "dangerous". All credibility is lost for you.
Welcome to the club Jim.
I am against organized religion as well.
The slavery issue was finally abolished by many events leading up to Lincoln, AND christian ideals. Imagine if those ideals were not present.
As far as interfering or offending a person due to symbols and icons, a person would have to be pretty weak to take offense to these things. Nothing else to do?
I certainly am not offended by jewish muslim or even satanic symbols (yet I must say the satanic is a bit disturbing) enough to have a fit over them, Let alone waste legal time and money fighting these things.
I try to stay out of these "debates" as it rarely changes the mind of non-believers, but in the spirit of the 4th of July - Those US citizens who are in favor of tossing aside religion as delusional rhetoric which has no place in Government, should make sure to throw out all references to religion. How about starting with "All men are created equal"?
Although it comes from The Declaration of Independence, it's religious in nature. The second sentence of The Declaration of Independence states:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Hmmm. Notice the 'C' in Creator is uppercase? Meaning God, correct? If that is too plain for the highly educated, ponder the fact that the document states men are "created". That logically implies there is a creator, as a creator is one who creates. I guess that means the Declaration of Independence has to go.
Taking it a step further, those who don't believe in a Creator, don't believe in creation, and therefore cannot possibly believe in the rights of something that doesn't exist. Of course there's problem of us being here. . . . . or do non-believers believe in creation without a Creator?
My Creator was a primordial soup. Your moronic comments that ethics comes from a belief in your God shows evolution still has a long way to go. Tell me, how many times is God mentioned in the US Constitution?
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Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.
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