You all need to go back to the founding of this country and do your homework on where the "bill of rights "came from. It was taught in churches for a few decades before the fed govt adopted it, nearly word for word. This is true of many documents and goings on in early US history. It has only been since the 50's that things got questioned, but the documents haven't changed.
The English started war with the religious institutions when this country was founded as well. That was the Revolutionary War. Few people study what started it. It was religious oppression, and the English went after the clergy. They figured if they could kill off the clergy they would win. It spread into the US government fighting, since most of the govt officials were religious and many were clergy.
Move forward to today and the mindset of people has changed, but the origination of this country was fought by christians to found what we have, including documents. All of the sudden, after 150+ years of this country we re-diagnose what the documents mean??? Understand who and why they were written, rather than being simplistic about it.
Then you will see why some of us are offended at those who would not only suppress real history but also distort the documents meanings and origination. All because morals have deteriorated and a small percentage of non christians or other religious entities complain. In percentage, this country strongly claims christianity as their own(~70%).
Some of you want to change what was, and rewrite history.
The fight is on, and God is not pleased.
Aardvark
The men who founded this country were well aware that religion, not any particular religion, did not mix with government. Made aware by the government installed by the English. Go read up on them and cut the bullshit. What they did was intentional. As you noted the bulk of the population was Christian for quite some time, and the apparent conflicts between the vision of the founding fathers and the practices of the government become more apparent as more of us attempt to do the "Christian thing" and see things through the eyes of others. When you see things that offend others and violate the word and spirit of the Constitution, you change them. We always have and hopefully always will. Because that distinguishes America from countries like Iran.
Jim
Oh yeah, my god could give a shit about this crap. My god is convinced how you live your life is more important than promoting the public display of affection for him that seems to have all of you paralyzed.
Jim,
And that is where you are way wrong. Read the writings of the founders of the presidents, and other top entities of government and catch the references to God in their lives, documents and actions. In regard to a particular religion, they were cautious, but not to their devotion to a christian God. Then "you" (not I, because I get it) can wonder why old statues buildings and other "Public" places, not only had references to God, but also inscribed bible verses and principles into their design.
It is what we were and somewhat still are as a nation.
A particular religion (orthodox, catholic other) is different from a belief in God. The founders were not only believers (for the most part) but also displayed it.
Church/State is different from God/State, as evident from our founders.
I may be wrong but the Separation of church and state is not even in the documents if you look. If I am wrong, show me where?
"Bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful, must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect, and to violate would be oppression." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801
You all need to go back to the founding of this country and do your homework on where the "bill of rights "came from. It was taught in churches for a few decades before the fed govt adopted it, nearly word for word. This is true of many documents and goings on in early US history. It has only been since the 50's that things got questioned, but the documents haven't changed.
The English started war with the religious institutions when this country was founded as well. That was the Revolutionary War. Few people study what started it. It was religious oppression, and the English went after the clergy. They figured if they could kill off the clergy they would win. It spread into the US government fighting, since most of the govt officials were religious and many were clergy.
Move forward to today and the mindset of people has changed, but the origination of this country was fought by christians to found what we have, including documents. All of the sudden, after 150+ years of this country we re-diagnose what the documents mean??? Understand who and why they were written, rather than being simplistic about it.
Then you will see why some of us are offended at those who would not only suppress real history but also distort the documents meanings and origination. All because morals have deteriorated and a small percentage of non christians or other religious entities complain. In percentage, this country strongly claims christianity as their own(~70%).
ETA:
Quote:
And that is where you are way wrong. Read the writings of the founders of the presidents, and other top entities of government and catch the references to God in their lives, documents and actions. In regard to a particular religion, they were cautious, but not to their devotion to a christian God. Then "you" (not I, because I get it) can wonder why old statues buildings and other "Public" places, not only had references to God, but also inscribed bible verses and principles into their design.
It is what we were and somewhat still are as a nation.
A particular religion (orthodox, catholic other) is different from a belief in God. The founders were not only believers (for the most part) but also displayed it.
Church/State is different from God/State, as evident from our founders.
I may be wrong but the Separation of church and state is not even in the documents if you look. If I am wrong, show me where?
I’m sorry, but this exhibits a fundamental ignorance of the Founding Era.
The Establishment Clause was specifically written by the framers to protect the People from religious zealots such as you.
Quote:
Some of you want to change what was, and rewrite history.
The fight is on, and God is not pleased.
A pathetic, delusional threat – that the facts of history offend your personal beliefs does not constitute a revision of that history.
__________________
1991 300 SE (w126.024/M103.981) 140,000 miles
Jim,
And that is where you are way wrong. Read the writings of the founders of the presidents, and other top entities of government and catch the references to God in their lives, documents and actions. In regard to a particular religion, they were cautious, but not to their devotion to a christian God. Then "you" (not I, because I get it) can wonder why old statues buildings and other "Public" places, not only had references to God, but also inscribed bible verses and principles into their design.
It is what we were and somewhat still are as a nation.
A particular religion (orthodox, catholic other) is different from a belief in God. The founders were not only believers (for the most part) but also displayed it.
Church/State is different from God/State, as evident from our founders.
I may be wrong but the Separation of church and state is not even in the documents if you look. If I am wrong, show me where?
Aardvark
You purposely confuse a personal religious belief with some state relationship with religion that you feel should be based on that personal religious belief. You are wrong. Go educate yourself on what it means to be an American, putting yourself in the shoes of those who founded the country. You are identifying yourself as a dangerous, religious freak who believes America is somehow specifically Christian.
Got me wrong, Jim.
And yes this country was founded basically christian, and by numbers basically is still to this day, by percentage. This does not mean others are not welcome to enjoy our freedoms and worship their own god, or lack thereof.
You are missing what we were and what we still are, predominantly.
I don't ask you to worship... I might try and encourage it, but you are able to do as you wish. That's America. I also don't ask you to follow my particular church beliefs, or demand it. That's what the British were advocating that we went against.
"Our particular principles of religion are a subject of accountability to God alone. I inquire after no man's, and trouble none with mine." --Thomas Jefferson to Miles King, 1814.
"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." --Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813.
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." --Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814.
Got me wrong, Jim.
And yes this country was founded basically christian, and by numbers basically is still to this day, by percentage. This does not mean others are not welcome to enjoy our freedoms and worship their own god, or lack thereof.
You are missing what we were and what we still are, predominantly.
I don't ask you to worship... I might try and encourage it, but you are able to do as you wish. That's America. I also don't ask you to follow my particular church beliefs, or demand it. That's what the British were advocating that we went against.
Aardvark
Gotta go
By your logic then you will be happy when Christians are a minority religious group in the country and Muslims or some other religion is the majority and they want to erect Muslim icons on public land? In our courthouses? Because there are a lot of them?
You are becoming so superficial in this discussion it is difficult to grant you any credibility - this is back to the "majority rules" crap of mobs running the place. Read up on the discussions and writings of the founding fathers when the Constitution was in the process of being written. Lots of arguments on this topic, but the basic rule of the state being neutral to any particular religion and supporting American citizens practicing any and all faiths, privately won out. Even with a very substantial Christian majority.
The intent is crystal clear. And, as America's minority groups grow in size and numbers it is more clear how right the founding fathers were. Practices you cite that violate the principles of the Constitution were permitted not because anyone thought they explicitly complied, they were permitted because there was no one pointing out they did not comply specifically because the population was so overwhelmingly Christian it did not seem offensive or oppressive to anyone. Now, with our more diverse population we are being made aware. And to be so ignorant as to believe that because Christians are the majority we don't have to revise our practices is to ignore the entire point of the Constitutions protection of our inalienable rights.
Your argument is Neanderthal. Might makes right. And when you are forced by the legal arguments of the ACLU to change you instantly take on the role of victim. Nothing noble or demonstrating Christian values being something we should support there.
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