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post #21 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
I would say that starting a phony war for no reason would be bad.

Continuing it would be worse. So what does that make Obama? He's continuing the war in Iraq. So applying the same standards that were applied to Bush that makes him a War Criminal.

Or is it just that those are talking points...

Yes his criticism of Bush is mild however, that does not take away from the fact that his assertions are spot on now does it?
You conveniently leave out the fact that the greatest obstacle to ending the Iraq war is the Republican party itself. In fact, many Republican senators and a number of generals called immediate withdrawal of troops irresponsible and when Obama compromised by gradually withdrawing the troops over several years, senator McCain and others actually praised him for doing so.
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post #22 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 06:03 AM Thread Starter
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You conveniently leave out the fact that the greatest obstacle to ending the Iraq war is the Republican party itself. In fact, many Republican senators and a number of generals called immediate withdrawal of troops irresponsible and when Obama compromised by gradually withdrawing the troops over several years, senator McCain and others actually praised him for doing so.
Wait, was there a wormhole or something? Who controls the House, the Senate, and the Executive Branch as well as the Supreme court? Oh yea that's right, the Democrats.

And you were saying it is the Republicans who are blocking it?

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #23 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 08:29 AM
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TNT,

You made a statement that went unchallenged that is actually at the center of your argument, and is untrue.

Bush started an illegal war, without a plan to govern once Saddam was ousted. That deed of starting the war is the immoral and illegal act.

Today we are owning up to the responsibility to try to put some kind of functional government in place before we leave so the people there we did not kill have a chance at living a life that is not overwhelmed with fear of car bombs and machine gun fire at any and all people walking on the streets.

Your statement that Obama is continuing Bush's illegal war is a superficial, politically motivated statement loaded with spin. Your suggestion that his continuation of Bush's war is worse than Bush's having started the illegal, immoral war is pure spin.

Once you pose your point without the rhetoric of the likes of Anne Coulter, Hannity, O'Reilley, Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the right wing fact spinning professionals you might get something other than dismissive, insulting response. But, you know that. And you know you posted a load of bullshit just to bait people. I think that qualifies you as a troll.

Jim
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post #24 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 09:24 AM Thread Starter
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TNT,

You made a statement that went unchallenged that is actually at the center of your argument, and is untrue.

Bush started an illegal war, without a plan to govern once Saddam was ousted. That deed of starting the war is the immoral and illegal act.

Today we are owning up to the responsibility to try to put some kind of functional government in place before we leave so the people there we did not kill have a chance at living a life that is not overwhelmed with fear of car bombs and machine gun fire at any and all people walking on the streets.

Your statement that Obama is continuing Bush's illegal war is a superficial, politically motivated statement loaded with spin. Your suggestion that his continuation of Bush's war is worse than Bush's having started the illegal, immoral war is pure spin.

Once you pose your point without the rhetoric of the likes of Anne Coulter, Hannity, O'Reilley, Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the right wing fact spinning professionals you might get something other than dismissive, insulting response. But, you know that. And you know you posted a load of bullshit just to bait people. I think that qualifies you as a troll.

Jim
Ok I will grant you that saying Obama is continuing the war is worse that GW starting it. We can settle then on "It's just as bad."

I happen to support the war in Iraq. Obama continuing it is a good thing in my book.

My whole point, and one that everyone seems to have missed, is the left's complete and utter disregard for fairness.

You talk of my assertion being politically motivated? Why haven't we heard a single person yelling for Obama's head on a platter because he is continuing this "Illegal", "Unjust" war? Is it because their motivation is political and they don't have principles to stand on, just talking points?

My whole "spin" as you put has the point of illustrating the absurdity, naivete, lack of education, and stupidity of the left on this subject. In particular those here on the board!

If you want to denigrate Bush and accuse him of War Crimes then you must do the same for Obama because he has been complicit and continued the War.

He has the ability to get everyone out of there within 30 days. Not a single American Serviceman would be on that soil after 30 days if he gave the order.

If this is an illegal war, then you and everyone else should accept nothing less than the absolute fastest withdrawal from Iraq under President Obama's orders.

How is that possibly spin?

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #25 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
Ok I will grant you that saying Obama is continuing the war is worse that GW starting it. We can settle then on "It's just as bad."

I happen to support the war in Iraq. Obama continuing it is a good thing in my book.

My whole point, and one that everyone seems to have missed, is the left's complete and utter disregard for fairness.
Unfortunately fairness is a perception, an invention of the human mind - not a naturally occurring sequence of events, unless by chance. So, your perception of what constitutes "fairness" is colored by your outlook on life. You are doing little more than whining like a spoiled brat who thinks his new sibling just home from the hospital is unfairly usurping Mom's attention. And you are engaging in childish, bullshit behavior to draw attention to yourself, akin to the kid who starts shitting his pants because the new baby gets attention for shitting his diapers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
You talk of my assertion being politically motivated? Why haven't we heard a single person yelling for Obama's head on a platter because he is continuing this "Illegal", "Unjust" war? Is it because their motivation is political and they don't have principles to stand on, just talking points?
I don't because I judge Obama for what he does within the range of possible choices, based on the reality that faces him. I would much prefer a more rapid withdrawal, and I am disappointed that we are not leaving faster. However, so far Obama has engaged new diplomatic strategies that may pay off and make fixing the mess Bush created out of order a realistic possibility. Just leaving, which I advocated in the past, may in fact be worse than giving the diplomatic tact and the more orderly withdrawal a chance.

I find it exceedingly disingenuous of you to characterize the present situation in Iraq as being on paar with the 5 years of wholesale killing Bush initiated "so we could fight them over there instead of fighting them over here." You do know better and you drawing of parallels or attempting to equate them is, again, pure trolling spin.

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My whole "spin" as you put has the point of illustrating the absurdity, naivete, lack of education, and stupidity of the left on this subject. In particular those here on the board!
That, again, is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I don't share it. I do not believe the invasion of Iraq was made based on the reasons it was sold to the Congress, the American people or the rest of the world, including the partner countries we enlisted - most notably Great Britain. I do not believe Saddam ever posed any kind of significant threat to the United States. I don't believe anyone in the Bush Administration believed it either - we have much more sophisticated means for monitoring activities we find suspicious or threatening today than we had when the U2 shots of the Russians helping Cubans set up missiles aimed at the US were released to the UN to support our case for confronting the USSR on this issue - and those resources were never used because the whole thing was a scam from the beginning. That is my opinion, and based on my conclusions that we attacked Saddam's country without justification, the attack was illegal.

Since the attack we have unleashed holy hell in Iraq. We have summoned every loonie radical Muslim from around the globe to come to Iraq to shoot at an American, destroying the nation of Iraq and murdering its citizens in the process - an innocent people, mind you as they did nothing to attack or threaten the United States - just so "we could fight them over there instead of fighting them over here." An immoral set of values if there ever was one.

Obama is not continuing the Bush program of plan-less-ly fucking up the lives of the remaining Iraqis. He has come up with a plan to get us out, while trying to make up for the ruin we brought on their country. And he is more likely to succeed than Bush, who began down one branch of this path once he dumped Rummy. I don't find anything Obama is doing on paar with what Bush did, at all, in Iraq.

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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
If you want to denigrate Bush and accuse him of War Crimes then you must do the same for Obama because he has been complicit and continued the War.
No, I don't have to because your sense of fairness, as tainted and distorted as it is, has been offended. Instead I would urge you to stop shitting in your pants for attention.

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He has the ability to get everyone out of there within 30 days. Not a single American Serviceman would be on that soil after 30 days if he gave the order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
If this is an illegal war, then you and everyone else should accept nothing less than the absolute fastest withdrawal from Iraq under President Obama's orders.

How is that possibly spin?
That is the least spun statement you made. Now, we can talk rationally, perhaps or perhaps not, about what that means. The fastest withdrawal that does the least harm to the Iraqi people whom we have tortured, killed, maimed and forced to endure misery like nothing we have ever experienced in this country, for 5 years - is a better place to start the discussion. And I think that is what we are doing under Obama's leadership. It means fixing the horror that Bush brought upon the Iraqi people as best we can, without sentencing them to endure another couple of generations of horror because we knee-jerked out of there.

I don't like it but I understand we have to give it our best try. Not to do so would earn us as a nation the same black mark that Bush and Cheney and Rummy earned when they rigged the data to support the illegal invasion to begin with.

Jim
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post #26 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 10:09 AM
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Just what we need, advice from a guy who thought invading Iraq was a great idea.
Yes FACLU...this is what "We the Americans need-truth"
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post #27 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSmith View Post
TNT,

You made a statement that went unchallenged that is actually at the center of your argument, and is untrue.

Bush started an illegal war, without a plan to govern once Saddam was ousted. That deed of starting the war is the immoral and illegal act.

Today we are owning up to the responsibility to try to put some kind of functional government in place before we leave so the people there we did not kill have a chance at living a life that is not overwhelmed with fear of car bombs and machine gun fire at any and all people walking on the streets.

Your statement that Obama is continuing Bush's illegal war is a superficial, politically motivated statement loaded with spin. Your suggestion that his continuation of Bush's war is worse than Bush's having started the illegal, immoral war is pure spin.

Once you pose your point without the rhetoric of the likes of Anne Coulter, Hannity, O'Reilley, Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the right wing fact spinning professionals you might get something other than dismissive, insulting response. But, you know that. And you know you posted a load of bullshit just to bait people. I think that qualifies you as a troll.

Jim
Did we have a plan for Japan when we dropped the 2 bombs... Did we need a plan to win World War 1 and 2. Sounds like the FACLU needs to get it's bearings correct! No administration makes 0 mistakes or makes the best decisions always and for that reason it would depend on which side your standing on whether it be the reason or the border....
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post #28 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 10:15 AM
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Yes FACLU...this is what "We the Americans need-truth"
The fact Obama is not a murdering pig who kills innocent women and children over a WMD lie getting you down or something? Not enough torture going on for you and TNT? What a bummer.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #29 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 11:08 AM
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FTL: it will always annoy you that real men have balls. I can't explain what happened to you.
reference to balls... hypocrite
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post #30 of 124 (permalink) Old 06-11-2009, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
I would say that starting a phony war for no reason would be bad.

Continuing it would be worse. So what does that make Obama? He's continuing the war in Iraq. So applying the same standards that were applied to Bush that makes him a War Criminal.

Or is it just that those are talking points...

Yes his criticism of Bush is mild however, that does not take away from the fact that his assertions are spot on now does it?
So you finally admit that this was a war based on phony reasons? Progress I see
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