Why I am a Christian (Chapter One) - Page 15 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #141 of 171 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by aardvark View Post
German
When I read his statement, I got the concept. He is saying the common non-christian cannot understand the addition to his life due to Spirit influence. If you don't experience the Spirit, you can't speak to the concept with any integrity, except from what you have heard/read or seen, but not experienced. I have never tried crack cocaine, so I can't speak to what it does, but I can sure talk to Spirit issues.
(((his points (and Greg correct me if I'm off base)))))
He used to be like you (w/o spirit)
A me-ist , egocentric. (Dalai Lama? is a fine example, but in most areas I've ever been to most people are somewhat as he types . Very few giving types, and a lot of takers.)
Accept reject. (there is the test I speak of. The Spirit got through. Unless it does the concept is a lost one. He is speaking of the rejection of Christ)
A undertone of what you cannot grasp (again, if the Spirit is'nt in you you cannot grasp the concept. I cannot grasp a crack cocaine lifestyle either)

You are quick to jump on concepts and call them western mindset, when in fact you are instead not seeing the concept for what it is. It is not condemnational as you portray, but opposite in fact. It is others with genuine concern for mankind but mainly for mankinds salvation. Instead you take the lack of understanding on Spirit issues of your part as a critique. It is not, and this is not either.
Just trying to explain. Explaining the Holy Spirit is nearly impossible...again...if you haven't experienced it.

Aardvark
Most psychologists are familiar with this phenomenon. They call them 'delusional episodes' and in most cases they're treatable, once treatment is sought.

(BTW, what's condemnational? Is it a new religious Christian sect you've created? )

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" - Seneca
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post #142 of 171 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 05:29 PM
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I tend to take his views on evolution. It is not totally worked out, you know. It is coming close but then again
Good science and Good theology meld. God created the sciences.

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post #143 of 171 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 05:33 PM
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Ok Dope.
Now you're a clinical psychologist? Good for you. I'll mention it to my neighbor who "is" with her doctorate and is a christian as well. She'll gat a kick out of it.

Aard/ out
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post #144 of 171 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 05:38 PM
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Ok Dope.
Now you're a clinical psychologist? Good for you. I'll mention it to my neighbor who "is" with her doctorate and is a christian as well. She'll gat a kick out of it.

Aard/ out
Did I say that? Did I imply that? No, you are either lacking simple comprehension or suffering another delusion.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" - Seneca
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post #145 of 171 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 05:39 PM
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"...pour out of one vessel into another; and as those old Romans robbed all the cities in the world, we skim the cream of other men's wits, pick the choice flowers of their tilled gardens to set our own sterile plots."
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post #146 of 171 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 05:41 PM
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I tend to take his views on evolution. It is not totally worked out, you know. It is coming close but then again
Good science and Good theology meld. God created the sciences.

Aardvark
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Whose views?

No, they don't, however much you try to force them to.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" - Seneca
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post #147 of 171 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 05:52 PM Thread Starter
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You may want to take another look at this paragraph:

First, I used to be like you (REALLY? ARE YOU CERTAIN? HOW WAS I? ARE YOU SOME KIND OF SPY?), a “me-ist”, ego-centric about my approach to the world (IS THAT HOW ALL NON-CHRISTIANS ARE? REALLY? PLEASE TELL THAT TO THE DALAI LAMA.), no need of or room for God. I was an atheist, slid into agnosticism, for a time I railed against God to the effect that if He was there, I wanted nothing to do with Him. Then … for a while … nothing. Later, I became a Christian (that’s a later chapter, of course). So I understand the “rejection” mindset (WHAT REJECTION? IS THERE NOTHING IN BETWEEN ACCEPTANCE AND REJECTION? NO IGNORANCE, NO AMBIVALENCE, NO OTHER PATHS AT ALL?). I appreciate the lack of understanding (HOW BIG AND SUPERIOR OF YOU). I understand the undertone of fear of something you can’t grasp (DO YOU? HOW JUDGMENTAL -- YOU MAY UNDERSTAND THE FEAR OF SOMETHING YOU COULDN'T GRASP, BUT THAT IS THE EXTENT OF IT).
Aardvark is on the right track, but can we back up? I seem to be extracting a confrontational edge here, and that's not my intent.

The paragraph is again, historical context. It's directed at an atheist audience, because of course you're correct, it's not "Christian vs. atheist", it's theism (of one kind or another) vs. atheism. Those are the opposites. So in the case of an atheist, there is no middle ground, you either accept the concept of a god/creator being (theism) or you reject it (atheism). That is the rejection mindset; I've yet to meet an actual atheist (as opposed to those that just talk the game) who does not plainly REJECT theism. Period. That in fact is what atheism means. The in-between, at least for now, we can think of as the agnostic, those who don't necessarily reject theism, but aren't ready to accept it, either. I suppose these could be considered "fence-sitters" or "wait and see-ers" too, but this part is about atheists, not agnostics.

And the same point pertains regarding "understanding"; "comprehend" might have been a better choice of words. I certainly didn't intend to mean that I "understood" anyone reading the paragraph in the sense of a mind-reader, but I see it can be read that way. All I can do is restate that it was not my intent, but rather, in all, the paragraph is descriptive of my former mindset, offered merely because quite often people hear the word "Christian" and immediately formulate a picture in their head of whatever they consider a "typical Christian". Since I have no idea what that might mean to anyone reading the post (or indeed, what it means to anyone or in the abstract) it made sense to me to provide the historical context to get away from the idea perhaps that I was just some uneducated goober who was home-schooled and raised in an immersion of some sect-or-other of Christianity.
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post #148 of 171 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 05:57 PM
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to get away from the idea perhaps that I was just some uneducated goober who was home-schooled and raised in an immersion of some sect-or-other of Christianity.
Perish the thought.
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post #149 of 171 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by gregs210 View Post
Aardvark is on the right track, but can we back up? I seem to be extracting a confrontational edge here, and that's not my intent.

The paragraph is again, historical context. It's directed at an atheist audience, because of course you're correct, it's not "Christian vs. atheist", it's theism (of one kind or another) vs. atheism. Those are the opposites. So in the case of an atheist, there is no middle ground, you either accept the concept of a god/creator being (theism) or you reject it (atheism). That is the rejection mindset; I've yet to meet an actual atheist (as opposed to those that just talk the game) who does not plainly REJECT theism. Period. That in fact is what atheism means. The in-between, at least for now, we can think of as the agnostic, those who don't necessarily reject theism, but aren't ready to accept it, either. I suppose these could be considered "fence-sitters" or "wait and see-ers" too, but this part is about atheists, not agnostics.

And the same point pertains regarding "understanding"; "comprehend" might have been a better choice of words. I certainly didn't intend to mean that I "understood" anyone reading the paragraph in the sense of a mind-reader, but I see it can be read that way. All I can do is restate that it was not my intent, but rather, in all, the paragraph is descriptive of my former mindset, offered merely because quite often people hear the word "Christian" and immediately formulate a picture in their head of whatever they consider a "typical Christian". Since I have no idea what that might mean to anyone reading the post (or indeed, what it means to anyone or in the abstract) it made sense to me to provide the historical context to get away from the idea perhaps that I was just some uneducated goober who was home-schooled and raised in an immersion of some sect-or-other of Christianity.
That is your definition of atheism. It is, IMHO, not only incorrect, since it categorizes all proponents of Eastern religion as atheists, it is also disrespectful. Yours is not the only god concept, although Christians consistently forward the notion that it is.

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post #150 of 171 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
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I get a kick out of evolution being called "brainwashing" by a flat-earth creationist. If that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.
Really? That's the best you can do? I'm impressed (and grateful) that you did more than simply spew obscenities at me, but if you want to trade insults I'm certainly capable of that. But it wouldn't be the Christian thing to do.

Moreover, you're not following classic debate and argument, but rather heading down a tangent with a little ad hominem thrown in for good measure. That's okay, and I'll digress there with you for a bit, but you're not fooling anyone by trying to turn this into a "I, Qubes, am smarter than you" track simply by posting a snide insult with your sidetrack. (Well, you might be fooling some, but you're not fooling me.)

So, to briefly join your digression: Have you noticed that it is called the THEORY of evolution? It is a decent theory, and parts of it have been well-documented, but overall it has yet to be PROVEN. However, that doesn't alter the reality that all of the theory (including macro evolution) is taught in public schools is as FACT, not THEORY. The holes in the THEORY are not discussed or even mentioned, much less taught; and in fact if a teacher attempts to question the THEORY or to teach about any of the places the theory is weak or empty, they'll typically find themselves in hot water, even at the higher educational levels.

Again, your absolute rejection of anyone or anything to do with theism reveals your own blindness and ignorance, because it's not an all-or-nothing proposition as GS noted in his rebuttal. Or perhaps you were shooting for hyperbole?

Contrary to what you apparently believe, I don't want our public schools to teach creationism (or flat-earth perspectives). What would be nice to see is them teaching evolution as what it is, a THEORY, not as scientific fact. It would be nice if teachers were free to instruct children about all of the aspects of evolution, including the places scientists are unable to explain it, as well as the cutting edge science that is striving to plug some of those holes (like the large Hadron collider) instead of just glossing over things and teaching them as fact.

At some level that's just as misguided as telling an adolescent "that mommy and daddy love one another and then a baby grows in mommy's tummy" -- because there are actual FACTS that could be taught. Of course in the evolution context in public education, positive facts are taught and reinforced, and negative facts are ignored.
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