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post #171 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-07-2009, 08:58 AM
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Seen a lot of believers become non - each finds what is best for the individual; respecting that decision is the problem.
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post #172 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-07-2009, 11:54 AM
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^ agree.
Unfortunately most don't respect others opinions. I do, but that doesn't mean I agree with others decisions, but they are their own and all of us have to deal with results.
Free Will.

Aardvark.
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post #173 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-07-2009, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by aardvark View Post
Dope
That review meets my expectations.
Parrot fashion. Ha!. You are "assuming" I had the book in front of me, but you "assume" a lot of things. That will be your downfall when it comes to spiritual matters, and I told you how to find the answer, but you "assume" you are correct. I know different, but I did my God directed thing for you. Still I'll pray for you and be there if answers are needed relating to Spirit matters. That is an area you "assume" you know about.
Free Will.

Aardvark

Originally Posted by aardvark
420SE
Dope
And who is intolerant?...
....
Hey Dope, Just picked up Dinesh D'Sousa's new book. "What's so great about Christianity"



"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" - Seneca

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post #174 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-07-2009, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by aardvark View Post
Tahloube.
Thanks for the article.
You're welcome. I hope it clarified how Islam reveres Jesus as a prophet/messenger of God. Actually, along with Mohammed, Abraham, Moses and Noah, he's called 1 of 5 'اولو العزم من الرسل' , meaning the 5 messengers who exerted most efforts to spread the message of God.
More on Jesus in Islam here: ( JESUS in the QURAN ) Ú*Óì Úá*å ÇáÓáÇã Ý* ÇáÞÑÂä

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It mischaracterizes Jesus and his claims from the Gospels however. It is easy to pick out individual verses and try and determine who Jesus was, but until the entire text is read, it is not understood who he claims he is.

I find the articles claims are doing just that. pulling individual verses and making a judgment call, It doesn;t match with the overall meaning of who Jesus claimed he was.
Mainly, Muslims get their belief from the Quran, not the Bible, and from Hadith (Mohammed's sayings and acts). The writer might have quoted some biblical verses (?) but we generally don't look in any other religious books for religious 'information'. To be honest, we believe the Torah and the Gospel were changed/modified in part well before the times of Jesus and Mohammed, respectively. We don't know what parts were changed/deleted/added but we believe the clergy did that to gain power over the masses and to distort the real message of the two great prophets/messengers Moses and Jesus. Of course I'm only explaining my faith and in no way mean to insult you or your belief.

BTW, have you ever heard of the Gospel of Barnabas?

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After all, that is why he was crucified, because he claimed he was God "I and my father are one" and numerous claims , were commonplace. I understand why Muslim authors would not want to believe Jesus is God. It would lessen the status of Mohammed. It would then put Jesus over Mohammed, as God and not a prophet.
I'm not sure that you understand that Mohammad vs. Jesus is not the issue. Muslims' main concern is to know and worship God the right way. God is the ultimate goal not the persons (Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, ..) he sends to show us the way. In Islam, we pray to and worship God not Mohammad because God created us not Mohammed. Maybe you get this concept mixed because you believe Jesus is God.

Besides, if Moahmmed wanted a personal glory he could've attributed the Quran to himself or claimed divinity but he didn't. And he had miracles on his hands to back up the claim as most prophets had miracles.

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I am not out to pass judgment, but realize the biblical writings say a different thing than what the author of your article portrays. This is not an uncommon practice, by even christian authors on our own bible, let alone other religious writings. A point just can not be made by picking a single verse. You know that from your own readings of your book
I agree on the 'picking of text' part but our major source of info is the Quran which is clear that God has no son.


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As of yet, I have not looked over the Koran verses, but will be doing so online ( i think) today. Again, if you have further references, I would be glad to read them.
I recommended Chapter 19 (Surat Maryam) and Chapter112 (Surat alIkhlas).


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It is sad the media lack of attention here of various events. All we can do is pray for sanity.
Amen.

Quote:
I don't know if your coverage was skewed as well, but any time there is an agenda or a leaning, things get reported towards those leanings.

Aardvark
We have CNN, Fox and the BBC to name a few. It's interesting to see how our news is told to the world although it raises our blood pressure most of the time.
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post #175 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-07-2009, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by aardvark View Post
Seen a lot of converted atheists.
I guess a light comes on in some neuron in there.
Aardvark

(spirit?)
Ever heard of Jeffrey Lang?
Jeffrey Lang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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post #176 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-07-2009, 06:08 PM
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Tahloube
Again the same format. discussions on your points.

I understand Muslims believe biblical writings have been changed, but we have the "dead sea scrolls" which were found and compared for todays writings accuracy. There are minor differences at best, and they don't effect the meanings. When translated to other languages some is changed when going from Hebrew to English. The changes again are minimal. The Greek is surprisingly accurate and the old greek to new has changed only in slang terms and things of that nature. Overall very accurate and a good basis for writings being original.
The research I have read shows the Koran was compiled in around 780AD. Also that there are no archives that contain old writings to pull accuracy from. SO the same can be said back (not as a slam) that your writings are also not too good.

Yes I've heard of the Barnabas reference, with Judas and all. I don't buy it.

I'm skipping down to God had no Son, since most other points I agree to.

Son of God is a major point with us, as well as the Spirit, and the New Testament is clear on it, in multiple locations. I gave you the book of "John" as one of many books that talk of that issue.
1st Corinthians for Holy Spirit issues and the power we enjoy to this day through the Spirit, but John also talks on that as well. There are true miracles and events happening in the Christian community on a regular basis, due to the Spirit. "John" covers the events of Jesus doing those things, but Jesus also tells us we also (as christians) have these Spirit powers, and I have seen them used.
Awesome stuff. .

Jeffery Lang? No but I looked at your link. There are always converts both ways as well as those who just deny .

Anyways, Tomorrow I will look up those Koran references. Today, is my Holy Day!

Prayers/Blessings/Understanding.

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post #177 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-07-2009, 11:03 PM
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What If God Was One Of Us?


or am I in the wrong thread

btw, SciFi channel is rerunning the series Joan of Arcadia
Quite an interesting take on God.
not an active participant, more like a mentor.
no miracles, no rising up, no floods... just guidance.


I now return you to your theological discussion of foreign fairy tales.
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post #178 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by aardvark View Post
Tahloube
Again the same format. discussions on your points.

I understand Muslims believe biblical writings have been changed, but we have the "dead sea scrolls" which were found and compared for todays writings accuracy. There are minor differences at best, and they don't effect the meanings. When translated to other languages some is changed when going from Hebrew to English. The changes again are minimal. The Greek is surprisingly accurate and the old greek to new has changed only in slang terms and things of that nature. Overall very accurate and a good basis for writings being original.
From the little I read about the scrolls, it became apparent to me that there's a lot of controversy and secrecy about them. It's the secrecy and granting the right of knowledge/research to a few people that makes one wonder why. We all know that clergymen did the same in old times (which Muslims argue made it easy to do the changes as nobody else could tell what the original text is/was) but why now? Something to hide, maybe?



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The research I have read shows the Koran was compiled in around 780AD. Also that there are no archives that contain old writings to pull accuracy from. SO the same can be said back (not as a slam) that your writings are also not too good.
Allow me to explain what Quran actually is. It's the recited word of God not the written. Compare the words (, if possible) " قرءان" and " قراءة" the first is Quran, the second means recitation in Arabic. The written/printed Quran is actually called alMosshaf (almoss-haf, no 'sh' sound). The majority of Arabs at the times of Mohammad were illiterate, although had an ear for poetry and eloquence, but couldn't read and write. The Quran was learned by heart by Mohammad and taught to his companions who then learned it/parts of it by heart (some learned it all and are called huffaz, some only parts) and then taught it to others that way.. successive, multiple narrators of a generation would teach it to the next generation that'll learn it and pass it to the next. That's how we have the Quran. I personally spent many years learning the Quran and its precise pronunciation and am still learning in order to be able to teach it to others. AlMosshaf, OTOH, was written by the few companions of Mohammed who could write and was collected and revised by the huffaz so as to provide the written copy to new Muslims in Persia, the Levant, etc. where Islam reached after Mohammad's death.

Muslims learn (at least parts of) the Quran by heart because they need it for their daily salat, a special prayer to be repeated 5 times a day, where parts of the Quran must be recited. Reciting the Quran without the salat is a form of worship, too. It's estimated that millions of Muslims know the Quran by heart now, some of them don't even know any Arabic but still recite it to perfection. I know this can't be said about any book, holy or not. Don't you agree?

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Yes I've heard of the Barnabas reference, with Judas and all. I don't buy it.
Why not?

Quote:
I'm skipping down to God had no Son, since most other points I agree to.

Son of God is a major point with us, as well as the Spirit, and the New Testament is clear on it, in multiple locations. I gave you the book of "John" as one of many books that talk of that issue.
1st Corinthians for Holy Spirit issues and the power we enjoy to this day through the Spirit, but John also talks on that as well. There are true miracles and events happening in the Christian community on a regular basis, due to the Spirit. "John" covers the events of Jesus doing those things, but Jesus also tells us we also (as christians) have these Spirit powers, and I have seen them used.
Awesome stuff. .
That's why we have 2 different religions.

As to answered prayers and 'miracles', Muslims aren't short of them either but not to the extent one would see in evangelical TV. I heard of cancers gone without treatment but not my parents' diabetes. They know they should take their pills as well as pray for a healthy life. Islam preaches taking worldly measures while at the same time ask for divine help. That's most likely how they built their civilization. Now with ignorance, superstition and adopting old tribal values again, Muslims are in the bad shape they are now and they deserve it.


Quote:
Jeffery Lang? No but I looked at your link. There are always converts both ways as well as those who just deny .
I only mentioned him because he came from atheism to Islam.
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post #179 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-08-2009, 08:49 AM
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Tahloube
Same format.

No, Nothing to hide. Like many archaeological finds, handling and care is taken, and specific folks are allowed to look over artifacts and others, not so much. The scrolls, as I gather are in bad shape. Care needs to be taken to decipher and care for them. Jewish and christian scholars have reviewed them, as well as secular. It is not secrecy, but rather care that is involved.
On Quran lack of writings, I would be more suspect. Lets face it. There have been people in history who were able to write from way back before the time of Moses. Starting at ~800AD is quite late in the game.

On the Barnabas thing.
It doesn't pass scriptural muster. It was also considered a writing from the 16th century, that appeared to be a forgery, but above and beyond all of that is a sense I get of one of the Corinthian "gifts". The gift of Discernment. It brings me up to the last point.

Spirit, Healing, and over all works of the Spirit. I also have seen some of this healing stuff going on on television. Some of it is staged, and I disagree with the methodology.
There are fakes in every religion. I only go by what I see and the folks I know directly. Seen some interesting results to prayer that astound me, even though this was called for by Jesus, and these things were also done by his followers. Jesus told us these things would be carried on after his resurrection.
I was talking to a fellow I had met yesterday. I knew of his past and we talked. He was a bad alcoholic who with 1 prayer from a friend, dropped the alcohol with no DT's or after effects. This is one case. I also hear similar stories with crack cocaine. No after effects. Same with other medical issues. Now I also believe there is follow up, and I also believe that medical as well as spiritual as a combo also works. There is no single formula. My own case is cancer. It was a surgeon who removed it, but major life changes and prayers for a spectacular recovery. I am being short here, but the follow ups from my surgeon and Holistic doctor have been abnormally fantastic. The doctors look stupified, yet pleased. God gets the glory. This and numerous issues in my life have been solved, where nothing else but God have done these things. These are issues talked about in John and Corinthians, thus the references. Cancers are also something I have heard of that have just disappeared, and with medical proof, since it was in the hospital when it happened. An acquaintances wife had that happen.
Are your parents christian? Diabetes is something that can be severely reduced from dietary measures, but I would feel proud to pray for their issues. Some things God will go right after, others are handled different. Things happen in God's time, way and reasoning
......
In any formal religion there are people off base. This is why I don't bother with formal religions, and go from Biblical writings specifically. I do belong to a church where we are told to review and challenge the leader for errors. It is a group who seem to get the basics correct, but even they get a few of the lessor items wrong on occasion. They are human.

You know, this conversation can be carried over to PM if you would like. Feel free.
I'm just eating breakfast, so I haven't looked at the references yet. Have you looked at mine?

Aardvark
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post #180 of 183 (permalink) Old 06-10-2009, 04:20 PM
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Handling the scrolls might have been nothing in the history of the Bible which is, correct me if I'm wrong, not even available in its original language.

Maybe my explanation was not clear. The Quranic verses/ayat were written (by the few who could write) during Mohammad's time as soon as they were revealed a n d learned by heart by Mohammad and hundreds of his companions. There's no point in history where a single verse/aya was not written as well as recited from memory by at least hundreds of Muslims. Neutral, not only Islamic, sources will tell you this.

I know the Gospel of Barnabas didn't stand a lot of scrutiny but it's not the only Gospel/Bible in this regard.

Healings do happen. Physicians can't explain a lot of things, I agree. 'Prayers' are answered from many people.. Even those who pray to rodents. God (not the rodent, for sure ) answers them by providing the reasons/circumstances that make things happen. In my belief, nothing happens out of the blue.

You find it astonishing that a man overcomes his alcoholism by one single prayer from a friend. Ever thought of an entire society that gave up alcohol altogether by the call of one single man. Now the majority of the estimated 1.5 billion of his followers have never tasted a single drop of alcohol in their entire lives.

I didn't have the time to read my assignment . I'm really busy these days but intend to do the reading both in Arabic and English when I have the time and peace of mind.
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