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post #191 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 07:55 PM Thread Starter
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Really? You're not kidding?

Just so I'm clear: personal attacks and hate speech are okay? So when CancerResearcher gets back from his wife-imposed break I can attack him for no reason but his claims to follow Islam and that is really okay with you?

That's what you're defending in the name of free speech and open dialog?
What, you're worried that all the haters will leave?

I often enjoy dialog and debate, in fact I laughed out loud when I saw GS post about lost debates because 95% of the people on here have no idea what a debate or argument is. They go down an irrelvant tangent, ignoring the point (just as most of this thread has done) and if you challenge them on a point, you get personally attacked or told to go [blank] yourself. If other people were as clear-thinking and respectful of what actually constitutes debate and argument as Mr. Smith, for example, that would be a different issue entirely. But they aren't; nor should they be. We're all different, which is the good thing, but using that to excuse ridiculous ranting conduct is a bit screwy.

As to my beliefs, yes, I am a Christian for the 2 of you that didn't know. But that's irrelevant to the broader point. The reason I started the recent threads were because of the recent attacks in threads about Christianity. If it had come up in a different context we'd be having this discussion in a different context, but at least it wouldn't be about the double-standard that has shown its ugly head. People have gotten timeouts for going after just about everything and everyone else, but hey, it's open season on those professing that particular faith. I AM NOT LOOKING FOR ANY FAVORITISM, just equalized treatment instead of the double standard. You want examples? Sheesh, all you have to do is search for recent threads and read through them. Again, I won't name names, but there is one member in particular who has it in for anything to do with Christianity and paints any Christian or Christian church with her/his negative, bigoted brush, and when staff then joins in the attack...well, I'm having trouble understanding why anyone is defending that sort of conduct. Instead of making presumptions or looking for some hidden motive, help me understand it, willya?

Nor do I want the removal of this double standard to go the other way. I don't want to be able to attack someone for their religion, sexual preference (or lack thereof!), race, creed, skin color, car choice, bad breath, etc. This should be a place where people can share their thoughts, opinions and beliefs openly and be subject to debate and argument -- but without fear of being attacked personally. Free speech is limited in lots of ways outside of this site; what are you so scared of by implementing that tiny limitation in this context? How does attacking someone personally and throwing bigoted, profane speech at them do anything to bolster an argument? Or is it that you don't want to somehow offend the haters, and the heck with what the rest of the members and potential members think?

***************

Now...getting back to the broader issue...if you really don't think the nonsense that goes on in BWOT does not reflect on the rest of the forum, you really need to buy a vowel. You're simply living in a fog, or at least being stupidly wishful. That's like being on the Titanic (coincidentally the last survivor of which just passed away in the UK) and arguing that since you're in a separate stateroom, you'll be fine. Naturally, you're free to contend that it is separate and distinct, but if you're going to take that tack, then make it separate and distinct, otherwise we're all winking and grinning because we know quite well that it is not. Anyone can drift in (or be appalled by the titles when clicking on "new posts") without regard to age, membership, premium or ... And you can't join BW without being part of OT, just like you can't board Titanic without being on board.

And...please forgive my obvious stupidity, but first and foremost, is this not this supposed to be a forum for automotive enthusiasts, particuarly those with a fondness for the Mercedes marque? How and why is it that OT has somehow risen to be more important than the rest of the site?
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post #192 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
You take it all far more seriously than I do. Consequently, you write with great intenisty and conviction. I believe you believe what you believe and I believe you believe it to be true.

So what?

there are folks who believe just as strongly and as intensely as you, have questioned themselves as thoroughly and come to the conclusion which you discount. Read up on the Jesuit Order for an example of people who question their convictions very deeply. I have no doubt there are Muslims and Daoists, and Shintos, and Scientologists, Republicans and Chevy salesman who believe intensely in their products, too.

So what?

In the final analysis, none of it is objectively demonstrable, not even physical reality. For as Germanstar previously pointed-out, the only way to prove any of its existence scientifically is to be able to step outside of that which is being investigated. Instead, existence is implicitly assumed in all science. Fine with me. It's a limitation I free acknowledge. I work with the world we have, not the world we might wish we had.

Alduous Huxley thought he found a way, but he couldn't prove it, either. It sure was a lot more fun.

Whatever floats your boat.

B
You keep trying to scramble higher up the high road, which I don't understand. This is a discussion rooted in what's happening here, on BWOT.

The problem isn't with people who question their beliefs deeply, it's with people who don't. Specifically here, at BWOT. We're not holding a global convention on the beneficence or iniquity of religion here. This isn't about me, or you, or people like us.

The OP is a call for armistice, essentially, and attempts to cast the religious generally and the Christians in particular as a class of untouchables. Those are people who, in my estimation so far, would never be able to demonstrate that they've scrutinized their beliefs as deeply as the Jesuit Order, which is precisely why they don't want to be presented with such uncomfortable topics as the evils perpetrated by religions and their leaders. They don't want to have their statements questioned. They'd rather cast these thinly veiled threats to the ownership, that something "bad" might happen if they don't step in and protect them.

I find it repulsive. They should remember that they have free will, and exercise it by leaving. Again, their arguments don't have a leg to stand on.
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post #193 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 07:57 PM
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Holy shit, after all this...you're still at it. Wow...just wow

I hate this edit thing...my post is directed at gregs
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post #194 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by gregs210 View Post
Just so I'm clear: personal attacks and hate speech are okay? So when CancerResearcher gets back from his wife-imposed break I can attack him for no reason but his claims to follow Islam and that is really okay with you?

That's what you're defending in the name of free speech and open dialog?
What, you're worried that all the haters will leave?

I often enjoy dialog and debate, in fact I laughed out loud when I saw GS post about lost debates because 95% of the people on here have no idea what a debate or argument is. They go down an irrelvant tangent, ignoring the point (just as most of this thread has done) and if you challenge them on a point, you get personally attacked or told to go [blank] yourself. If other people were as clear-thinking and respectful of what actually constitutes debate and argument as Mr. Smith, for example, that would be a different issue entirely. But they aren't; nor should they be. We're all different, which is the good thing, but using that to excuse ridiculous ranting conduct is a bit screwy.

As to my beliefs, yes, I am a Christian for the 2 of you that didn't know. But that's irrelevant to the broader point. The reason I started the recent threads were because of the recent attacks in threads about Christianity. If it had come up in a different context we'd be having this discussion in a different context, but at least it wouldn't be about the double-standard that has shown its ugly head. People have gotten timeouts for going after just about everything and everyone else, but hey, it's open season on those professing that particular faith. I AM NOT LOOKING FOR ANY FAVORITISM, just equalized treatment instead of the double standard. You want examples? Sheesh, all you have to do is search for recent threads and read through them. Again, I won't name names, but there is one member in particular who has it in for anything to do with Christianity and paints any Christian or Christian church with her/his negative, bigoted brush, and when staff then joins in the attack...well, I'm having trouble understanding why anyone is defending that sort of conduct. Instead of making presumptions or looking for some hidden motive, help me understand it, willya?

Nor do I want the removal of this double standard to go the other way. I don't want to be able to attack someone for their religion, sexual preference (or lack thereof!), race, creed, skin color, car choice, bad breath, etc. This should be a place where people can share their thoughts, opinions and beliefs openly and be subject to debate and argument -- but without fear of being attacked personally. Free speech is limited in lots of ways outside of this site; what are you so scared of by implementing that tiny limitation in this context? How does attacking someone personally and throwing bigoted, profane speech at them do anything to bolster an argument? Or is it that you don't want to somehow offend the haters, and the heck with what the rest of the members and potential members think?

***************

Now...getting back to the broader issue...if you really don't think the nonsense that goes on in BWOT does not reflect on the rest of the forum, you really need to buy a vowel. You're simply living in a fog, or at least being stupidly wishful. That's like being on the Titanic (coincidentally the last survivor of which just passed away in the UK) and arguing that since you're in a separate stateroom, you'll be fine. Naturally, you're free to contend that it is separate and distinct, but if you're going to take that tack, then make it separate and distinct, otherwise we're all winking and grinning because we know quite well that it is not. Anyone can drift in (or be appalled by the titles when clicking on "new posts") without regard to age, membership, premium or ... And you can't join BW without being part of OT, just like you can't board Titanic without being on board.

And...please forgive my obvious stupidity, but first and foremost, is this not this supposed to be a forum for automotive enthusiasts, particuarly those with a fondness for the Mercedes marque? How and why is it that OT has somehow risen to be more important than the rest of the site?
You can substantiate any of that, and don't think I don't know you're targeting me. Put up or shut up. This is as outrageous to me as you think it is to you. I double-dog dare you to demonstrate that there's an on-going or even incidental pattern of "hate speech" directed toward Christians in particular. The Christians here have willingly offered up their opinions, on their own accord, and have struggled mightily to defend them. Having your own statements challenged isn't hate speech. Likewise, reading NEWS that you find unsettling doesn't constitute hate speech.

Trying to appeal to authority to silence the opposition on your behalf, because they don't think like you and reading what they write is uncomfortable, now that is in a class by itself.
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post #195 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR View Post
You keep trying to scramble higher up the high road, which I don't understand. This is a discussion rooted in what's happening here, on BWOT.

The problem isn't with people who question their beliefs deeply, it's with people who don't. Specifically here, at BWOT. We're not holding a global convention on the beneficence or iniquity of religion here. This isn't about me, or you, or people like us.

The OP is a call for armistice, essentially, and attempts to cast the religious generally and the Christians in particular as a class of untouchables. Those are people who, in my estimation so far, would never be able to demonstrate that they've scrutinized their beliefs as deeply as the Jesuit Order, which is precisely why they don't want to be presented with such uncomfortable topics as the evils perpetrated by religions and their leaders. They don't want to have their statements questioned. They'd rather cast these thinly veiled threats to the ownership, that something "bad" might happen if they don't step in and protect them.

I find it repulsive. They should remember that they have free will, and exercise it by leaving. Again, their arguments don't have a leg to stand on.
Oh, I didn't understand what you were about. Sorry.

carry on.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

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post #196 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 08:20 PM
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How and why is it that OT has somehow risen to be more important than the rest of the site?
I was not aware that it was.

And forgive me, but did you read the entire thread? Lots of good points and many of the questions in this post addressed.
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post #197 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 08:51 PM
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One empathize with others instead of oneself.
One is able to empathize due to ones experiences. Hence examples of my experiences. Without similar experiences, such as those examples, one can only sympathize, never empathize.

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post #198 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 08:55 PM
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Look, in a heated discussion, the parties involved are already vested in them expending time, feeling emotion and stress. They care passionately about the subject at hand. So please don't just brush them off with the unfeeling perspective of a third party (i.e. lack of empathy) and tell them to buzz off. Unlike real brawls, no one usually gets hurt in the end.
Re-read what I posted. If you look at the tone of the forum or the tone of a specific thread, the point I make is don't get started into it in the first place.

Obviously if a person is already engaged in the discussion it is a different matter. Whether they want to stay and get their blood pressure up or not is fully up to them but that was not the point I was making. My point was if a person doesn't like the tone of a forum or of a certain subject matter, don't go there.

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post #199 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 08:56 PM
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Re-read what I posted. If you look at the tone of the forum or the tone of a specific thread, the point I make is don't get started into it in the first place.

Obviously if a person is already engaged in the discussion it is a different matter. Whether they want to stay and get their blood pressure up or not is fully up to them but that was not the point I was making. My point was if a person doesn't like the tone of a forum or of a certain subject matter, don't go there.
Free will.
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post #200 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by gregs210 View Post
Just so I'm clear: personal attacks and hate speech are okay? So when CancerResearcher gets back from his wife-imposed break I can attack him for no reason but his claims to follow Islam and that is really okay with you?

That's what you're defending in the name of free speech and open dialog?
What, you're worried that all the haters will leave?

I often enjoy dialog and debate, in fact I laughed out loud when I saw GS post about lost debates because 95% of the people on here have no idea what a debate or argument is. They go down an irrelvant tangent, ignoring the point (just as most of this thread has done) and if you challenge them on a point, you get personally attacked or told to go [blank] yourself. If other people were as clear-thinking and respectful of what actually constitutes debate and argument as Mr. Smith, for example, that would be a different issue entirely. But they aren't; nor should they be. We're all different, which is the good thing, but using that to excuse ridiculous ranting conduct is a bit screwy.

As to my beliefs, yes, I am a Christian for the 2 of you that didn't know. But that's irrelevant to the broader point. The reason I started the recent threads were because of the recent attacks in threads about Christianity. If it had come up in a different context we'd be having this discussion in a different context, but at least it wouldn't be about the double-standard that has shown its ugly head. People have gotten timeouts for going after just about everything and everyone else, but hey, it's open season on those professing that particular faith. I AM NOT LOOKING FOR ANY FAVORITISM, just equalized treatment instead of the double standard. You want examples? Sheesh, all you have to do is search for recent threads and read through them. Again, I won't name names, but there is one member in particular who has it in for anything to do with Christianity and paints any Christian or Christian church with her/his negative, bigoted brush, and when staff then joins in the attack...well, I'm having trouble understanding why anyone is defending that sort of conduct. Instead of making presumptions or looking for some hidden motive, help me understand it, willya?

Nor do I want the removal of this double standard to go the other way. I don't want to be able to attack someone for their religion, sexual preference (or lack thereof!), race, creed, skin color, car choice, bad breath, etc. This should be a place where people can share their thoughts, opinions and beliefs openly and be subject to debate and argument -- but without fear of being attacked personally. Free speech is limited in lots of ways outside of this site; what are you so scared of by implementing that tiny limitation in this context? How does attacking someone personally and throwing bigoted, profane speech at them do anything to bolster an argument? Or is it that you don't want to somehow offend the haters, and the heck with what the rest of the members and potential members think?

***************

Now...getting back to the broader issue...if you really don't think the nonsense that goes on in BWOT does not reflect on the rest of the forum, you really need to buy a vowel. You're simply living in a fog, or at least being stupidly wishful. That's like being on the Titanic (coincidentally the last survivor of which just passed away in the UK) and arguing that since you're in a separate stateroom, you'll be fine. Naturally, you're free to contend that it is separate and distinct, but if you're going to take that tack, then make it separate and distinct, otherwise we're all winking and grinning because we know quite well that it is not. Anyone can drift in (or be appalled by the titles when clicking on "new posts") without regard to age, membership, premium or ... And you can't join BW without being part of OT, just like you can't board Titanic without being on board.

And...please forgive my obvious stupidity, but first and foremost, is this not this supposed to be a forum for automotive enthusiasts, particuarly those with a fondness for the Mercedes marque? How and why is it that OT has somehow risen to be more important than the rest of the site?
OT is what it is because we share something in common but OT is not about the brand it's about us, the people.
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