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post #161 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 11:31 PM
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I think Zappa was a stupid motherfucker without any talent.
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post #162 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 11:33 PM
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I think Zappa was a stupid motherfucker without any talent.
You aren't any fun at parties are you?
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post #163 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 11:35 PM
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You aren't any fun at parties are you?
Try me.

I still think Zappa was a talentless tasteless motherfucker.

Sincerely.

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post #164 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 11:41 PM
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post #165 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 11:43 PM
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Sam with the soaring tip flattop, was particular about the point that it made.
Capt. Beefheart............wow......deja vu.



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post #166 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 05:48 AM
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I will be rappelling off of two 120 ft faces and hiking through beautiful forests for six hours.

Guess which is the most spiritual experience.
I would suppose that anybody who would presume to opine would be either telepathic or a bit full of himself.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #167 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 06:29 AM
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No shit, huh.

But you do see that begs the question, not prove or disprove it?
If you're talking about begging the question of "why would they lie (about the influence of their faith on their lives)", no, I don't think it does. That of course assumes you don't have a pre-supposed answer to the question in mind, which differs from the one I offered.

The short book "More Than A Carpenter" put out by whatever institution heads up bible churches, goes about setting up this legalese argument for why Christ MUST have not just existed, but been the son of God:

1) There's far too much accurate written history from too many people, all talking about Christ, for him not to exist.
2) He claimed he was the Son of God, the messiah.
3) There are only three reasonable beliefs one can take regarding #2.
- He was lying
- He was crazy
- He was the messiah

And then it goes into all this detail of the words it was reported he said to disprove that he was lying or crazy.

The question left unanswered is this - what if the words we're left with regarding the history of Christ were simply wrong? What if they're recounting fables passed down for the few hundred years that passed since Christ's existence? It is a "reasonable doubt", and we'll never know.

The same is true in your case. They claim that faith transformed their lives. Are you assuming there are the same three options - liars, crazy people, or truth tellers? I think that begs my question, which is, "What if they're just wrong?"
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post #168 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 07:30 AM
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If you're talking about begging the question of "why would they lie (about the influence of their faith on their lives)", no, I don't think it does. That of course assumes you don't have a pre-supposed answer to the question in mind, which differs from the one I offered.
...
I'm not going to read the book. As I said previously, I don't care enough. Bein g made uncomfortable by an argument is not the same as being convinced by an argument -- whence my reference to Aquinas. His arguments concerning God are extremely compelling and the best counterarguments for the first two are (to me) tedious and unsatisfactory.

Even though I am not now nor have I ever been a lawyer, I fully accept that eye-witness testimony is problematic and usually quite unreliable. In my own experience I have seen simple things that I believed I understood very clearly but later discovered I did not understand and in fact, was quite wrong. I can easily multiply that by any number of billions. Observer's comments maybe cumulative into a correlatively useful argument, but are not causational.

But do let us look at observation as a tool of understanding. It has brought us both the ptolemaic and copernican systems. If we dwell on just Ptolemy and discard observations because of that erroneous system, then we would never have arrived at Copernicus. Because Copernicus' system was based on observation, too.

Thus, I would argue that billions of people over thousands of years are right about something, just as Ptolemy was right about something. Don't discount all observations simply because one derived answer appears flawed.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #169 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 09:16 AM
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I will be rappelling off of two 120 ft faces

John Kerry and Ann Coulter?

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post #170 of 342 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 10:20 AM
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2) He claimed he was the Son of God, the messiah.
Reference please. I am aware of his 'son of god' statement, in the sense that are all children of god. I am also aware of a statement in which he claims that god is greater than him (thus he is not god), as god is greater than us all.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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