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post #51 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 04:46 PM
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Agree Botnst.
The law was not abolished, but fulfilled. Jesus said that, right?
No more animal sacrifice, no more 160+ laws to follow , but by the grace of God through Jesus, his teachings and his death/resurrection we are under the Spirit for guidance, as well as the teachings of Jesus. Laws as a guideline.

Back to the Tithe issue.

There is a big difference in the reason and method of tithing from those times. A 10%+ amount is still a reasonable amount. However, we will not be cast into hell for not meeting the laws of the OT, since the Law was abolished, in lieu of Grace.
It is a guideline.
You need to be wary of the church and their teachings on it. They have a motive and it is not always the best. They would have you believe it is necessary, and to "their" church. In reality, it is necessary (since the Spirit will lead you to do so), and also prudent, because it comes back to you (thus another biblical promise) in multiple. Put a different way "You can't out give God !" To where you tithe, is sort of a personal issue, and I do support a religious entity with tithe, and additional to other entities( offerings).

Are you of Jewish ilk?
Blessings!

Aardvark
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post #52 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 05:09 PM
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Botnst ^
I did it again and used the term "abolished" in my 2nd paragraph.
Not abolished, but replaced or fulfilled. Still, Peter and Jesus himself followed with tradition, but also Jesus was the fulfillment of many of the laws (sacrifices are thus abolished since he was the ultimate in that realm).

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post #53 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 05:22 PM
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Agree Botnst.
The law was not abolished, but fulfilled. Jesus said that, right?
No more animal sacrifice, no more 160+ laws to follow , but by the grace of God through Jesus, his teachings and his death/resurrection we are under the Spirit for guidance, as well as the teachings of Jesus. Laws as a ...
Are you of Jewish ilk?
Blessings!

Aardvark
I think you referred to my message without the burdensome task of reading it.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #54 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 05:52 PM
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Botnst

No, I read it, and for the most part agree, but have a differing take on Jesus and what he said, as well as his role. Or maybe not! I think there is a separation from Jewish laws. Some (of the 160+) are not relevant to today, in fact, I highly doubt 99% of christians know of them. I just know there are that many from OT, and have a clue on a handful of them.

Could you elaborate on the curing of skin disease? I am from a church/group and mindset of healings. Doctors definitely play a role in verification and help. See God's power in peoples lives on occasion that way.

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post #55 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 06:18 PM
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Botnst

No, I read it, and for the most part agree, but have a differing take on Jesus and what he said, as well as his role. Or maybe not! I think there is a separation from Jewish laws. Some (of the 160+) are not relevant to today, in fact, I highly doubt 99% of christians know of them. I just know there are that many from OT, and have a clue on a handful of them.

Could you elaborate on the curing of skin disease? I am from a church/group and mindset of healings. Doctors definitely play a role in verification and help. See God's power in peoples lives on occasion that way.

Aardvark
My reading of Leviticus reavled that the historic Jews spent a lot of ink concerning themselves with skin disease (assuming that the term, "leprosy" was not restricted to Hansen's Disease but any expression of skin disfunction).

My understanding of the current Christian paradigm is that it emerged after Emperor Constantine demanded a regularization of the faith. He wanted a dependable state religion to replace paganism and because Christianity was popular with the plebeians he thought that by controlling a central church authority, he could effectively control the unruly lower class. He wasn['t the first politician to think of that, he just effectively regularized Christianity to his political aspirations.

Before Constantine, the church was a mess, even ignoring the murderous suppression by the Romans and others. The Christians were busy accusing each other of heresy and forging documents from one apostle or another that supported a particular argument -- whether or not women were equal of men, what to do about slavery, what to do about wealth and poverty, etc. Was Jesus wholly divine or wholly human or a sort of mixture that changed over time? What to do about Judaism?

So Constantine bribed and threatened and cajoled the major church fathers to meet and regularize the faith and holy scripture. From this we have the current canon -- essentially the Jewish Law and Prophets, the 4 Gospels (MMLJ), Acts of the Apostles and the various letters attributed to Paul, Peter, James and others. They also established a fundamental description of the Christian Faith which is enumerated in the Nicene Creed (Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org).

Constantine's church soon split between east and west along with the Roman Empire. Then you had the church that remained in Rome (Roman Catholic Church) and those that stayed true to the church Constantine ruled from Constantinopolis (Constantine was not an humble man), the Orthodox Church.

Things remained in that hostile relationship in which both churches excommunicated each other and then leveraged political war against each other for about 1,000 years until Byzantium fell to the Muslim expansion and Constantinopolis came under direct attack. The Orthodox Church paid off the Catholic Church for military assistance and the western nations raised armies to return Byzantine lands and people to Byzantine rule -- the crusades began.

Etc.

Modern western Christians all descend from the Roman Catholic Church. You (we, they ... whatever) all share a common view of the Bible. It is different from the Orthodox Church's view. Theologically, in some way even anabaptists are more like Roman Catholics than Roman Catholics are like Orthodox.

There's an excellent book by a biblical scholar and translator concerning how we came to have the understanding of the Bible that we have. If you're curious, I highly recommend it. WARNING: It is not what I would call, a faith-based exposition. You have been warned.

Amazon.com: Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why: Bart D. Ehrman: Books

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

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post #56 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 07:20 PM
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Um, Yeah McBear.
Awkward?
You have a eastern philosophy. Goes against everything she stands for.
I can see friendly, but still awkward.

Aardvark
Yet we have remained friends for over 50 years and stand side by side when we do work for poor in some Appalachian areas. The thing is, she gets it. She understands that there are other thoughts besides her beliefs that are fully valid.

The point is, she knows that I her beliefs are NOT against everything she stands for because she doesn't demand that HER view is the only possible view. When I bring Hindi friends down, or Buddhist friends down, or Cherokee or Jewish, she knows that they are just in a different place than she, not a lesser place because they are not Christian or a certain flavor of Christian.

That is part of the next step.

McBear,
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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #57 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 07:30 PM
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I think you referred to my message without the burdensome task of reading it.
,,,

McBear,
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post #58 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 07:48 PM
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I get it too McBear, but also think your views are skewed, and believe in 1 God that sent his Son as a sacrifice. If we do not accept the sacrifice, you would then expect that God to be a little miffed, wouldn't you?
I mean, Imagine giving up your only Son for a sacrifice, and having someone throw it back as a non event, or something irrelevant. How would you take that? Bad, I would suspect.
If your friend is of Christian mindset, she gets the concept, and will never accept otherwise, no matter how hard you try and tell her otherwise. She may agree to disagree, but that is it. If she indeed does accept your mindset, she is denouncing her present belief. Good luck in your conversion process. I somehow doubt the success you are anticipating.
It's one thing to work with others for a common goal, but another to give up a faith that proves itself out, over and over again. Until you experience that, you cannot fathom it.

Botnst.
Sorta got the concept of the history you speak(write) of. I don't totally buy the history as you put it, and will indeed look over the link. I see a lot of dissenting info like this, and some concepts/points are usually left out. Generally the Spirit and the power that comes from that entity get missed, and the authors of info like this are out of touch with it. It is also a guide in my life that points proper direction. Until or if you are aware of it, things will get answered in miraculous and unique ways. It gives a sense of discernment in these matters.
I will look it over, however.

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post #59 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 07:50 PM
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...
Botnst.
Sorta got the concept of the history you speak(write) of. I don't totally buy the history as you put it, and will indeed look over the link. I see a lot of dissenting info like this, and some concepts/points are usually left out. Generally the Spirit and the power that comes from that entity get missed, and the authors of info like this are out of touch with it. It is also a guide in my life that points proper direction. Until or if you are aware of it, things will get answered in miraculous and unique ways. It gives a sense of discernment in these matters.
I will look it over, however.

Aardvark
As is your right.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #60 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 08:22 PM
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Botnst
Looked him up, and his bio. A masters of divinity from Princeton? not the best source for religious history. I also understand his stance. seems quite anti christian.
In reality I cannot take the info from someone who appears to not be spirit lead. I see the folks he has debated as much more in line with spirit matters. How can the same spirit differ so vastly? Answer: It can't!
On general info, I haven't had time to review yet, but from the outset he doesn't look credible. I see debunkers too often. He appears to be just another.
My good friend has a PHD in divinity from Trinity, in Deerfield IL, specializing in old testament. His specialty and 25 years of study have been in Genesis, as well as the other books of Moses, but is well versed in the Bible as a whole. I would more readily take his word on some of these items than Mr Ehrman. After all, my source, reads, writes and speaks in hebrew, and is of greek origin (so the same holds true for greek).
I also know his spirit leanings, since we have prayed and studied together on these matters.
You gotta watch the debunkers out there. They are prevalent, and can drag you down the wrong path. Prayers for you in that, friend.

And that is my right.

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