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post #241 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 01:10 PM
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Actually, I think that the library is mine, not Qs.

The Franklin speech has been contentious for over 200 years. What he said, why he said it, even IF he said parts of it.

What is know for sure is that he stepped up at a moment in time to refocus everyone on the true meaning of what needed addressed.

Here is one scholars view of what he calls the "controversy". It brings the meaning of WHY he said what he said to question. The source is good and well researched with solid references. It doesn't discount the merits of what he said, but it does put things in a somewhat different view.

The Franklin Prayer
Let me apologize up-front and admit I am not going to read Franklin's prayer nor commentary on his prayer, nor argument on the commentary about his prayer nor wheather he even prayed any of it or all of it or none of it.

My understanding of Franklin is that he came to different understandings of his beliefs as time passed.

So if we take any normal life as layered like an Shrek's onion, then Franklin's life would have been comparatively layered as a Tiramisu. If we inspect a single layer of this life, we will find a particular answer concerning Mr Franklin's religiosity, or lack thereof.

In his younger years he was what Christians charitably describe as "a free-thinker."

In his middle years he was a deist, sort-of. A deist of convenience, perhaps.

Toward the latter part of his middle years he became a Mason (IIRC). What is the one thing you must believe in order to become a Mason?

Toward the end of his years he (re-)joined the Quackers and with the Quakers, conducted probably the first peaceful demonstration that disrupted Congress while in session. It was to protest a coming vote allowing slavery. With his Quaker congregation, he was an ardent abolitionist and warned that failure to address the incongruity of the Declaration of Independence with the myopic practicality of the Constitution would wreck the republic. perhaps he spoke with God's prophecy. At any rate, he was right.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #242 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 01:20 PM
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So someone fears the reaper, what else is new?
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post #243 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 01:22 PM
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So someone fears the reaper, what else is new?
MORE COWBELL!!!!

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #244 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 01:26 PM
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The unknown or nonexistent is scary as hell, I am not immune. The bell tolls for everyone, chief.
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post #245 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 01:35 PM
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So the question is, which group is trying to rewrite history to serve their purpose? The group that puts the Franklin Prayer speech in abstract form, void of context or the group that floods the Franklin Prayer speech with secondary and tertiary sources, all from The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787 which cast a different view as to the motives and reasoning behind the speech? Each could be considered to be presenting to the best light of their point of view and purpose.

I tend to look at the body of Franklin's words and see what is consistent throughout his life. I also find that, many times as the founders got older they changed their viewpoints on many things, the perceptions of religion among them [that is a very good trait in anyone]. So it is possible in some of these folks to pull very accurate slices of their beliefs at different times that signify different views of their philosophy.

Earlier this month I was at a roundtable with Buddhist monks, Cherokee Shamen, a Presbyterian Minister and a few other folks. My thoughts changed on some things changes a bit just within that two day period.
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Let me apologize up-front and admit I am not going to read Franklin's prayer nor commentary on his prayer, nor argument on the commentary about his prayer nor wheather he even prayed any of it or all of it or none of it.

My understanding of Franklin is that he came to different understandings of his beliefs as time passed.

So if we take any normal life as layered like an Shrek's onion, then Franklin's life would have been comparatively layered as a Tiramisu. If we inspect a single layer of this life, we will find a particular answer concerning Mr Franklin's religiosity, or lack thereof.

In his younger years he was what Christians charitably describe as "a free-thinker."

In his middle years he was a deist, sort-of. A deist of convenience, perhaps.

Toward the latter part of his middle years he became a Mason (IIRC). What is the one thing you must believe in order to become a Mason?

Toward the end of his years he (re-)joined the Quackers and with the Quakers, conducted probably the first peaceful demonstration that disrupted Congress while in session. It was to protest a coming vote allowing slavery. With his Quaker congregation, he was an ardent abolitionist and warned that failure to address the incongruity of the Declaration of Independence with the myopic practicality of the Constitution would wreck the republic. perhaps he spoke with God's prophecy. At any rate, he was right.

B
When I read through the founders books and papers, it is Franklin and Jefferson that I find most appealing; mostly because they are the most textured of the group.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #246 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 02:07 PM
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The unknown or nonexistent is scary as hell, I am not immune. The bell tolls for everyone, chief.
So is the known.

There is no choice: Deal with it with the tools that suit you best. For most people around the planet and through time, it's religious expression of some sort. Fine with me.


B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #247 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 02:07 PM
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When I read through the founders books and papers, it is Franklin and Jefferson that I find most appealing; mostly because they are the most textured of the group.
No question.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #248 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 03:36 PM
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After the courts ram gay marriage down our throats. Can anyone give me one good legal reason why polygamists should not be allowed the same protection under the equal protection clause?
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post #249 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 03:46 PM
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If the SCOTUS chooses to apply Amendment 14 and strike down the Calif proposition, it will depend on what the protections/privileges of the law with regards to marriage (or whatever you want to call it) are. I would think the benefits of dependency and survivorship are it, and I think an argument could be made that polygamists could be denied multiple marriages without losing those benefits (ie - they'd have the same right to 1 as everybody).

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post #250 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 03:59 PM
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After the courts ram gay marriage down our throats.
Nothing is being rammed down anyone‚Äôs throat ‚Äď due process and equal protection, per the Constitution, are being preserved.
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