Prop 8 upheld by CA Supreme Court 6-1 - Page 10 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #91 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-26-2009, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Budd View Post
You fail to recognize what this country was founded upon - and why it was founded in the first place. If it fits your agenda - great - if not - bigotry.

Edit: As far as not infringing - what do you think is now being taught in CA schools as early as 3rd grade? Hint: The Prince and the Prince. Not infringing?
Please enlighten us on what YOU think this country was "founded upon".

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post #92 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-26-2009, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Budd View Post
You must be deaf and blind - go figure.

Edit:
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams' quotes taken OUT of context!


Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
“ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.”

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
Now, with all that, can you tell us why they didn't include ANY of that thought in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence or Bill of Rights?

I believe the question was to the founding of the country, not their particular thoughts at particular times pulled from context.

McBear,
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post #93 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-26-2009, 06:42 PM
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As far as I can tell, all our rights are equal. Any man, gay or straight, has the right to marry any woman, gay or straight. If a man really likes his Mercedes, he still can't marry it, because it's not a marriage.
As far as fiscal rights and so forth, domestic partners laws guarantee equality.

Am I missing something?
Yes

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post #94 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-26-2009, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
Now, with all that, can you tell us why they didn't include ANY of that thought in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence or Bill of Rights?

I believe the question was to the founding of the country, not their particular thoughts at particular times pulled from context.
They included a thought:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion . . . (Amendment 1)

Realizing that religion had no place in the federal government, lest that government choose one and make laws against the others. Free to practice, free to worship, or not . . .

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post #95 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-26-2009, 06:59 PM
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This argument has been proven wrong so many times that I can't believe people keep trotting this sort of tripe out to prove a point.

State sanctioned marriage is nothing more than a contract between two adult parties who do not breach the requirements of consanguinuity. Only parties who have the legal standing to enter into a contract are able to enter into a marriage contract. Minors do not have legal standing to sign contracts. Animals do not have legal standing to sign contracts. Inanimate objects do not have legal standing to sign contracts.
I think part of the arguement is that if marriage is redefined from one man and one woman, why can't it or why shouldn't it be redefined to include plural marriages? What's the big deal if a man want's to be legally married to two or three women? Or men?
I personally voted against the ban and was in the minority, but I agree with the court upholding the voice of the people. I was offended by the heavy handed advertisements accusing anyone against gay marriage of bigotry and comparing them to racists.
I'm frankly shocked the court didn't overturn it though, being the 9th district.
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post #96 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-26-2009, 07:03 PM
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I say legalize it and tax them heavily to cover their health care (since we will all be expected to pay for it).
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post #97 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-26-2009, 07:04 PM
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Were I to challenge this law the citizens of CA have made a part of their constitution, I'd try this:

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

(Amendment 14)

It's history:

The ratification of the 13th Amendment was a major victory for the North, and it was hoped that with the Emancipation Proclamation and the 13th Amendment, the effects of slavery in the United States would quickly diminish. The original plan to readmit states after acceptance of the 13th was supported by President Andrew Johnson, but the Radical Republicans, as they became known, wanted more than just a return to normalcy. They wanted to keep the power they had attained during the war years. The South did not make it easy for Johnson, however, and the so-called Black Codes started to be passed in Southern states. Congressional inquiries into the Black Codes found them to be a new way of controlling ex-slaves, fraught with violence and cruelty.

The ensuing Reconstruction Acts placed the former CSA states under military rule, and prohibited their congressmen's readmittance to Congress until after several steps had been taken, including the approval of the 14th Amendment. The 14th was designed to ensure that all former slaves were granted automatic United States citizenship, and that they would have all the rights and privileges as any other citizen. The amendment passed Congress on June 13, 1866, and was ratified on July 9, 1868.

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post #98 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-26-2009, 07:06 PM
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One of us is going to have to change our position. We cannot have this confluence. Why don't you be the bad guy for a change?
How about if I take the Dark Overlord, Dick Cheney's side on this--does that constitute a swapping of sides?
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post #99 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-26-2009, 07:14 PM
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ding, ding..
Ding, ding indeed; always follow the money.
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post #100 of 267 (permalink) Old 05-26-2009, 07:17 PM
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I think part of the arguement is that if marriage is redefined from one man and one woman, why can't it or why shouldn't it be redefined to include plural marriages? What's the big deal if a man want's to be legally married to two or three women? Or men?
I personally voted against the ban and was in the minority, but I agree with the court upholding the voice of the people. I was offended by the heavy handed advertisements accusing anyone against gay marriage of bigotry and comparing them to racists.
I'm frankly shocked the court didn't overturn it though, being the 9th district.
Interestingly no one ever mentions a woman's right to be married to several men (or women).

Equal rights anyone?
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