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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-14-2009, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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Fair Tax Video

To the point and evocative.


Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-14-2009, 08:14 PM
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So, does Paul feel that the folks who built this country into the greatest economic engine in the world, through the Industrial Revolution, out of the Depression, Post WW2 growth, through the massive expansion of the Dot.Com revolution [the very premise that he SAYS he aspires to achieve] had "their work ethic inhibited"? Does he feel that they had the "gas taken out of their engine"?

But it sounds so good to keep calling it "fair". But it never models out right.

Using Paul's evocative video as an example, Bill Gates should never have done well, nor Paul Allen, nor Steven Jobs.

Looking back to the industrialists of the 30s and 40s, Henry Ford was paying 73% tax back when the Model T was cranking out its 15Millionth car. How did he ever make it? William Randolph Hearst, 73%.

Standard Oil's John D. Rockefeller...between 50 and 79%. And the numbers for small businesses are up there also. Yet look at the astronomical growth of American Business throughout the 20th Century. At no point did businessmen use taxes as an excuse for failure to achieve their dreams [that is a very NEW trait, very politicized and having little to do with business acumen].

It is a simple fact that if you want to "be the best you can be" and "establish your own business" you simply DO IT. Taxes are going to exist, period. We have to pay whatever amount is required to pay all the bills. Want to cut your taxes, cut the bills. THAT is how to reduce your taxes. Accept less services and less loopholes and less deductions and your taxes will go down.

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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-14-2009, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
So, does Paul feel that the folks who built this country into the greatest economic engine in the world, through the Industrial Revolution, out of the Depression, Post WW2 growth, through the massive expansion of the Dot.Com revolution [the very premise that he SAYS he aspires to achieve] had "their work ethic inhibited"? Does he feel that they had the "gas taken out of their engine"?

But it sounds so good to keep calling it "fair". But it never models out right.

Using Paul's evocative video as an example, Bill Gates should never have done well, nor Paul Allen, nor Steven Jobs.

Looking back to the industrialists of the 30s and 40s, Henry Ford was paying 73% tax back when the Model T was cranking out its 15Millionth car. How did he ever make it? William Randolph Hearst, 73%.

Standard Oil's John D. Rockefeller...between 50 and 79%. And the numbers for small businesses are up there also. Yet look at the astronomical growth of American Business throughout the 20th Century. At no point did businessmen use taxes as an excuse for failure to achieve their dreams [that is a very NEW trait, very politicized and having little to do with business acumen].

It is a simple fact that if you want to "be the best you can be" and "establish your own business" you simply DO IT. Taxes are going to exist, period. We have to pay whatever amount is required to pay all the bills. Want to cut your taxes, cut the bills. THAT is how to reduce your taxes. Accept less services and less loopholes and less deductions and your taxes will go down.
My plan is working

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-14-2009, 08:28 PM
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My plan is working
Look around you, what percentage of your neighbors and their ilk would voluntarily cutback on the services and programs that affect them? See, democracy really sucks that way.
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-14-2009, 08:48 PM
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My plan is working
There's a plan. Dammit.

I have banged this drum for half a decade. I have also said we have to spend smart and that sometimes we have to spend when we don't want to.

It's why little simple "fair tax" memes, much like the NeoCon "we gonna cut your taxes" shell game are always lacking in substance and end up being nothing but carnival cotton candy, and THAT usually ends up thrown up in the floor of the back seat of the car.

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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-14-2009, 09:11 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
So, does Paul feel that the folks who built this country into the greatest economic engine in the world, through the Industrial Revolution, out of the Depression, Post WW2 growth, through the massive expansion of the Dot.Com revolution [the very premise that he SAYS he aspires to achieve] had "their work ethic inhibited"? Does he feel that they had the "gas taken out of their engine"?

But it sounds so good to keep calling it "fair". But it never models out right.

Using Paul's evocative video as an example, Bill Gates should never have done well, nor Paul Allen, nor Steven Jobs.

Looking back to the industrialists of the 30s and 40s, Henry Ford was paying 73% tax back when the Model T was cranking out its 15Millionth car. How did he ever make it? William Randolph Hearst, 73%.

Standard Oil's John D. Rockefeller...between 50 and 79%. And the numbers for small businesses are up there also. Yet look at the astronomical growth of American Business throughout the 20th Century. At no point did businessmen use taxes as an excuse for failure to achieve their dreams [that is a very NEW trait, very politicized and having little to do with business acumen].

It is a simple fact that if you want to "be the best you can be" and "establish your own business" you simply DO IT. Taxes are going to exist, period. We have to pay whatever amount is required to pay all the bills. Want to cut your taxes, cut the bills. THAT is how to reduce your taxes. Accept less services and less loopholes and less deductions and your taxes will go down.
So then you are saying that it is ok and Fair for 32% of the people to not pay income tax?

How is it fair for the top 10% of wage earners to pay 70% of the tax burden?

You actually want to compare the tax code of the 30's and 40's to today. That is laughable!

You pick 3 or 4 examples that are exceptions and you try to make them the rule. I love it! Only in Liberal La La land can that happen.

Please explain why the fairtax won't work?

I mean besides simple things like reducing the overhead of collecting taxes, everyone would pay taxes and you wouldn't have special classes of people who "earn too much."

Of course then you wouldn't have any opiate known as class warfare to pump into the masses.

It always amazes me, year in and year out the liberals of this country talk about making it better for those who are poor or don't make enough to pay income tax, and yet, that group keeps on growing as does the tax code.

You scream about offshoring, well what happens when you raise taxes on business? They go to other places that are more tax friendly. Funny how Home Depot is an Atlanta GA company and yet they are incorporated in Delaware. Now why is that?

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-14-2009, 09:29 PM
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So then you are saying that it is ok and Fair for 32% of the people to not pay income tax? Are you counting the affluent who use loopholes and tax havens in that 32%, or small businesses that deduct to profits for zero taxes?

How is it fair for the top 10% of wage earners to pay 70% of the tax burden? You are pulling your question from a site and not looking at the logic of it. What would the percentage amount be for the top 10% of wage earners using fair tax?

You actually want to compare the tax code of the 30's and 40's to today. That is laughable! My point was massive expansion of enterprise and business. Apparently that was lost on you.

You pick 3 or 4 examples that are exceptions and you try to make them the rule. I love it! Only in Liberal La La land can that happen. I will be happy to pick ANY economic model in ANY tax bracket of entrepreneurs that you choose to show you they are not exceptions. You need to learn your material before making assumptions.

Please explain why the fairtax won't work? Please define "fairtax", and provide a model, not just platitudes and chest thumping.

I mean besides simple things like reducing the overhead of collecting taxes, everyone would pay taxes and you wouldn't have special classes of people who "earn too much."

Of course then you wouldn't have any opiate known as class warfare to pump into the masses.

It always amazes me, year in and year out the liberals of this country talk about making it better for those who are poor or don't make enough to pay income tax, and yet, that group keeps on growing as does the tax code. UM, the Republicans were in charge of the tax code for well over a decade of that "year in and year out" slice of time of which you speak.

You scream about offshoring, well what happens when you raise taxes on business? They go to other places that are more tax friendly. Funny how Home Depot is an Atlanta GA company and yet they are incorporated in Delaware. Now why is that?
Offshoring has nothing to do with raising taxes. Offshoring has to do with labor costs. Taxhavens have to do with raising taxes. Learn your terms.

And Home Depot has it's corporate HQ in Deleware because we have a tax code that allows that loophole. Remove the loophole and HD will move their HQ back to Atlanta, they won't move it offshore or quit business.

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-14-2009, 09:30 PM
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So then you are saying that it is ok and Fair for 32% of the people to not pay income tax?

(Here is a snippet of an article I found on the tax foundation website)
the number of tax returns with zero or negative tax liability has risen steadily over the past decade. However, it accelerated sharply between 2000 and 2004 due to the effects of tax changes during President Bush's first term of office
Google it

Please explain why the fairtax won't work?

because, as you've so eloquently stated. 32% of the country doesn't pay taxes, so they would be apathetic over voting for or against it.

Of course then you wouldn't have any opiate known as class warfare to pump into the masses.

you will always have class warfare. flat/fair tax or not.


You scream about offshoring,

think Bush, Clinton and NAFTA>>>> OK?
now to the meat of your argument.

For so many years people have brought this up.
Why has it not been put into law?
Because it doesn't work
Repeat.
It doesn't work
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-15-2009, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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For a forum that always screams "Show me the evidence" I love, simply LOVE the fact that when we talk about the fair tax it seems to be enough to simply say "It won't work."

That's Rich.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-15-2009, 11:34 AM
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For a forum that always screams "Show me the evidence" I love, simply LOVE the fact that when we talk about the fair tax it seems to be enough to simply say "It won't work."

That's Rich.
Well, I asked you to define it and provide a model of that definition so that I could actually do a bit of research and answer your question.

There are so many variations on the "fairtax" concept, most of which are like the video above, all talk and no actual plan that it is impossible to provide you with an honest answer until you provide a definition and model from which to draw an opinion.

I see you avoided that request, however.

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