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post #111 of 161 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 07:05 AM
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No problem then Jim.
Separate me from religion and we get along. Now this doesn't mean that I don't take on some of organized religions views, especially if they are in alignment with Biblical teachings, so there we may or may not disagree. It is not even a choice I can make, since I do need to support the views of Biblical teachings. Do I need to push them on you? Yes to a degree, just as you think you must establish laws against my views. Fair is fair.
If it takes an organization, a PAC or a lobbyist to do it, I will back it, if biblical, just as if you were an NRA member trying to support your views. There is little difference. (and by the way I am a NRA member). You see we are effected by intolerance as you are, and we deserve the same considerations as you....Like it or not!!!
The definition of Marriage, abortion, and many other issues effect us directly and we deserve to voice our opinion, just as you. If your side is outnumbered, it is called a "vote". One wins one loses. Chips fall where they will.

Thinking different from you doesn't make me intolerant, but just different.
Be careful tying me to religions just because at times my views meld with religious factions. I am a free thinker, but am tied to a standard, wether I like it or not, because I decided on Gods writings as a template for my lifestyle.
That was MY "Free Wil"l to choose that direction. I'm fine with the choice since most I see as positive in my life. The rest I have no choice. God decides , not me.
I will fight and back Gods principles, not the churches.

Aardvark


I want you to read back the items in bold & red here, to see how disconnected and irrational - almost psychotic - you sound to many of us.


The definition of marriage and abortion and many other issues has ABSOLUTELY no impact on you whatsoever. Having your feelings hurt over what SOMEONE ELSE wants isn't anywhere near the same as being told what you MUST do, or what you CAN NEVER do.

And I was meaning to ask this question if this kind of thing came up - how exactly does the issue of gay marriage or abortion AFFECT YOU? Has anyone talked about REDUCING or ELIMINATING a FREEDOM that you enjoy vis-a-vis legislation pertaining to those issues?
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post #112 of 161 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 07:13 AM
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And I was meaning to ask this question if this kind of thing came up - how exactly does the issue of gay marriage or abortion AFFECT YOU? Has anyone talked about REDUCING or ELIMINATING a FREEDOM that you enjoy vis-a-vis legislation pertaining to those issues?
For Christians it’s the Jonah Effect – to allow sin makes the Christian as guilty as the sinner.

What’s wrong? You don’t like the idea of the American Christian Republic? The Constitution is replaced by the bible.
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post #113 of 161 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 07:14 AM
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For Christians it’s the Jonah Effect – to allow sin makes the Christian as guilty as the sinner.

What’s wrong? You don’t like the idea of the American Christian Republic? The Constitution is replaced by the bible.
Then I guess torture isn't a sin.
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post #114 of 161 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 09:30 AM
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You don't have to like my views, and visa versa. You call it psychotic, I see a rationality. We disagree, and I really do care about what you think, but not enough to shift from biblical principle. Deal with it and out vote us if you can because according to stats , better than 70% think gay marriage is wrong, and about 80% think partial birth abortion is wrong as well, and yet you the politicians don't get it. Oddly enough, (and maybe the graphicness of it has had effect) the younger generation is actually finding abortion in general, less acceptable than a decade ago even with liberal organizations pushing it. Now all of these folks are not psychotic christians, but people from varying walks of life.
SO, Out in California you have the Gay community mad as hell at the churches, and yet it was the black population that threw the vote to the downside by massive percentages. Bet you wouldn't see them protesting black communities, however. Why the misdirection, eh? I think I know. Do you hate the black population as bad as you do the christians for their stance?

Oddly you call me disconnected, but the statistics and percentages say you are in the minority on Gay Marriage, and Abortion, and not me.

So support what you want and I will do the same. The difference, is I won't call you psychotic or hypocritical, or or or. You see I can tolerate your view and yet not like it.
You are appearing to be the intolerant one.

Vote how you want. Support who you want. Fund who you want, and I will do the same and won't complain about you.

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post #115 of 161 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 09:36 AM
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^ You are not who you think you are Mr. "Libertarian"....

Here are the words of a Libertarian: "There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.'" -- Barry Goldwater

See the difference? To a Libertarian, "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" trumps your desire to impede the free will of others.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #116 of 161 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 09:47 AM
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I got the point, Germanstar.
Even Libertarians come from differing mindsets. Just like you have christian and non, in dem's and rep's . I don't follow the preacher as stated. I follow the source material only and verify that preachers legitimacy. If he meets the smell test with me, I might (Might, I say again) align with him on a specific item.

And if your side dictates your moral belief(or lack thereof) on me, why shouldn't I have the same option? Intolerance?

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post #117 of 161 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 09:55 AM
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The libertarian argument suggests that we all live according to our own creed, up until the very point at which one's pursuit of happiness encroaches upon the rights of another. The pursuit of legal remedy toward the imposition of moral beliefs upon others leans you away from libertarianism and toward fascism. "Live and let live" is the true Libertarian's credo, not "live as I live".

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #118 of 161 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 10:47 AM
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I got the point, Germanstar.
Even Libertarians come from differing mindsets. Just like you have christian and non, in dem's and rep's . I don't follow the preacher as stated. I follow the source material only and verify that preachers legitimacy. If he meets the smell test with me, I might (Might, I say again) align with him on a specific item.

And if your side dictates your moral belief(or lack thereof) on me, why shouldn't I have the same option? Intolerance?

Aardvark
Your inability to recognize that expanding rights and liberties for others happens without encroaching on your own is legendary.

You can believe whatever the hell you want. Just stop drawing circles around people, putting labels on them, and telling them that they don't have the same rights as people with other labels in other circles.

Incidentally, I'm staunchly opposed to abortion, but not because of any religious mumbo-jumbo. I'm opposed to it because a statistically significant number of fetuses conceived are either carried to term, or survive on to lead happy & healthy lives if delivered prematurely. Especially in this country, conceived fetuses stand a better than 90% chance of seeing their first birthday. With odds like that, there's really no "chance" involved in the equation.

I therefore take issue with the assertion that it's ONLY okay to kill an infant if you're the mother, and only before it crosses the "magic threshold" of the vagina. I argue that laws protecting the unborn by way of murder laws in a large number of states should not exclude abortion. Nothing religious about that, other than honoring the Judeo-Christian ethic "thou shalt not kill".

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post #119 of 161 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 10:55 AM
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Q
You don't have to like my views, and visa versa. You call it psychotic, I see a rationality.
So you find it "rational" to proclaim FREE WILL at every opportunity, then in the same breath imply that you have no free will because you're an unfortunate vessel of God? Want some examples of how well that defense has held up in court?

If someone murdered your children and told the court it's what God told them to do, I suppose you'd stand up and demand the case be dismissed...

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Originally Posted by aardvark
We disagree, and I really do care about what you think, but not enough to shift from biblical principle. Deal with it and out vote us if you can because according to stats , better than 70% think gay marriage is wrong, and about 80% think partial birth abortion is wrong as well, and yet you the politicians don't get it.
I'm not a politician, first of all. ???

Second of all, you're making those out as religious issues - they aren't. Religion has no business in politics - that's a mandate by law.

Finally, there have throughout history been vast, innumerable numbers of people who were DEAD WRONG about something. It takes time for the ignorant to catch up sometimes. Take slavery, for example.

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Originally Posted by aardvark
Oddly enough, (and maybe the graphicness of it has had effect) the younger generation is actually finding abortion in general, less acceptable than a decade ago even with liberal organizations pushing it. Now all of these folks are not psychotic christians, but people from varying walks of life.
I don't know that anyone is standing outside of schoolyards "selling" abortions. They believe that a woman has a right to make this choice. I disagree with them 100%.

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Originally Posted by aardvark
SO, Out in California you have the Gay community mad as hell at the churches, and yet it was the black population that threw the vote to the downside by massive percentages. Bet you wouldn't see them protesting black communities, however. Why the misdirection, eh? I think I know. Do you hate the black population as bad as you do the christians for their stance?
Is their religion dictating to them that they should be intolerant, or is it just a matter of ignorance? I can't say... I do think the GLAAD groups, etc. got a wake-up call when that fact came to light. I think they can get the benefits they're looking for without using the term marriage. No idea why that's not good enough. I have no problem with the term marriage remaining religious in nature. I think that civil unions for lack of a better term could apply equally to gay and heterosexual couples who don't want religion to be a part of their relationships.

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post #120 of 161 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 11:14 AM
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I choose the Libertarian label not because I buy everything the Lib party stands for, and I very well know their stance. Sheesh, even their own party cannot agree in full. I also am a Constitutionalist. I agree with their stances for the most part. It doesn't take much, however to step on someone else's rights.
The Dem's and Rep's have blown it in my opinion. Most folks in either of those parties ALSO don't follow right down the party lines. If you're a Dem, I can guarantee you don't. Or do you?
Q
I want your rights left alone, as well as mine, but it doesn't work that way in this system when laws are put in place. Someone gets stepped on. Live and let live, but we can't even do that, and abort life. All for convenience and usually as a means of birth control for the irresponsible. Mistakes happen but repeated mistakes are just insane. Someone needs stepped on here. And Partial Birth?? My abortion thoughts as well are not based on religious views, but are supported by them.
There are also few things that I stand for that interfere with you, as far as anything I have read of your posts. I don't draw circles around you or anyone else...but...do you?
I don't make the laws or morals you have to live by, but given the chance to state an opinion or sway a decision I will do so. Alternatively, you can do the same. You're trying to do it now. I am not condemning of others. I am however opinionated , as I see you are as well. Something wrong with that?

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