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post #141 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-22-2009, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
Looks like I need to add Lobbyist reform to the start of that process. You are very correct that, with out it, problems will exist.

The thing that I see as the biggest disconnect to all of this is the opponents of a National plan seem to make the blanket assumption that it will be a government run plan while the proponents of the plan seem to think it will be a corporate run plan that is built by a group that includes government, corporate and health professionals to build a system that can then be run by corporate America.

And the other observation is that many keep saying that there has never been a government program that has worked well. I believe that TARP is going to make that argument fully moot in short order.
TARP . . . scoop up a trillion or two of our grandchildren's money and pour it into the banks. That was a real challenge. And to think that you rail on Reagan and others who pour future generations loot into today's economy. Welcome to neoconism.

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post #142 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-22-2009, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
Yeah, old dead white guys wrote down their thoughts on lots of stuff, and their pontifications made a lot of sense in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Learn, grow and move forward...or get out of the way. This nation needs to start operating like a modern first world Republic, and leave silly grandiose myths of rugged individualism in the past.
Those old, dead, white guys wrote our constitution to confine the federal government and allow the people their freedom and liberty. It is not an obsolete concept.

And getting out of the way when you see something wrong is somewhat un-American, don't you think?

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post #143 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-22-2009, 07:05 PM
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"Your" wealth came about due, as much as anything to the broader wealth of our country, much from the sacrifice of many previous generations. Some was through entrepreneurs, some was through deep sacrifice. Each generation is called upon to do something to better the country as a whole.

Our father's generation sent over 14 million of its sons [10% of its population] to fight wars]. The previous generation sacrificed as the country rebuilt from a devastating depression, with everyone pitching in to help everyone else in every way possible.

"Your" wealth, much like my wealth is fully hinged on the accomplishments and sacrifices of those who came before us and the decisions they made to make OUR lives better and to make OUR path easier. We have some of those decisions also. We are here for just a brief moment in time. Our decisions, good and bad stay long after we are gone. The ability for everyone to have reasonable healthcare seems to me to be one of those good decisions. Whether I pay X% taxes or X+1% taxes is not particularly relevant in the big picture.
Those previous generations, especially those 14 million, sacrificed so that the federal government could begin to provide for us and control us all? Nah, I think it was the freedom and liberty thing. Liberty for all. All.

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post #144 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-22-2009, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Difflock View Post
I have only one question
Who is going to?
& How are they going to?
RATION
said state sponsered healthcare, with limited funding
My old granny needs a couple of million spent on her,
should give her a few more months,
like she is doting and beyond economic repair
but HEY its NOT my money I am for spending on her
my alcoholic uncle "needs" a new liver
My chain smoking Aunt needs a couple of new lungs
( but wont give up the ciggies)
My grossley overweight cousins want their stomach stapled
My ugly wife wants a face lift and a boob job, cos hey she is feeling suicidal ( that works) cos the Muslim girlies are getting their fannies stitched back up on the NHS, so as they can pass themselves off as virgins ( BBC news item)
and so on ad inifinitum
We are paying for those very issues now with insurance premiums, taxes and out of pocket healthcare.

Health insurance premiums are higher as a result of much of that list. Some folks can't afford to get insurance because the premiums are too high. So some folks go without any insurance because a collective of 85 year olds with very fatal illnesses are kept alive.

So one doesn't think I am cold hearted because it is someone else's parent, my own father was pretty much kept alive for four months, with an MRI that showed solid white, and kept alive only by machines because we were at a Baptist Hospital and they wanted to keep him alive "until my mom was ready", which conveniently for them was just about the same time his medicare threshold was reached. On the most humorous side, and he would have loved the timing, as Dick Clark counted down the ball, they turned the machine off. He died 00:00:01 010101. While I really can't watch the Times Square thing any longer, I do love that.

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post #145 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-22-2009, 10:25 PM
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Until politicians are introduced to the word "NO", our leaders will continue to set unrealistic expectations of what the federal government ought to be involved with.

.....but that ain't gonna git 'em re-elected....
As well, until Corporations are told that they can't exclude entire groups of folks, set rates and "agreements" that only a Godfather would love and have to perform for ALL Americans, not just the most profitable ones, they will continue to fail folks.

The Insurance Industry of Corporate America has had decades to address the plight of the underinsured, the uninsured, spiraling costs, collusion with Pharma and large Corporate Hospitals and they have chosen not to address the problem themselves. THEY have chosen to ignore the least convenient user base.

Unfortunately the system has manifested itself, due to high costs, 100% consumer requirement and necessity to that of a utility. We don't allow a utility to pick and chose its customers and to raise rates at 500% inflation rate annually and to hold customers hostage with capricious rule changes.

The Insurance Industry of Corporate America had their chance to fix this to THEIR satisfaction, to design and implement THEIR solution. Instead, they chose to ignore it. Nobody within that industry, or who supports business should be surprised that now, after watching it being ignored, government is stepping in to fix their mess. They had their chance and blew it.

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post #146 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-22-2009, 10:30 PM
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Those previous generations, especially those 14 million, sacrificed so that the federal government could begin to provide for us and control us all? Nah, I think it was the freedom and liberty thing. Liberty for all. All.
Not the point. Every generation has to make sacrifices. Some with the blood of its generation, some with self sacrifice, some with fiscal contribution. Each is different, not necessarily linked.

A bunch of the folks in 1776-1787 didn't appreciate the sacrifices they were required to make for the fledgling country. We certainly appreciate it

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post #147 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-22-2009, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
As well, until Corporations are told that they can't exclude entire groups of folks, set rates and "agreements" that only a Godfather would love and have to perform for ALL Americans, not just the most profitable ones, they will continue to fail folks.

The Insurance Industry of Corporate America has had decades to address the plight of the underinsured, the uninsured, spiraling costs, collusion with Pharma and large Corporate Hospitals and they have chosen not to address the problem themselves. THEY have chosen to ignore the least convenient user base.

Unfortunately the system has manifested itself, due to high costs, 100% consumer requirement and necessity to that of a utility. We don't allow a utility to pick and chose its customers and to raise rates at 500% inflation rate annually and to hold customers hostage with capricious rule changes.

The Insurance Industry of Corporate America had their chance to fix this to THEIR satisfaction, to design and implement THEIR solution. Instead, they chose to ignore it. Nobody within that industry, or who supports business should be surprised that now, after watching it being ignored, government is stepping in to fix their mess. They had their chance and blew it.
Hugo Chavez couldn't have said it better. In fact....

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post #148 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-22-2009, 10:40 PM
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TARP . . . scoop up a trillion or two of our grandchildren's money and pour it into the banks. That was a real challenge. And to think that you rail on Reagan and others who pour future generations loot into today's economy. Welcome to neoconism.
TARP, where many of the banks are already standing in line to pay back their loans because they are beginning to stabilize.

As I have said many times I hate debt. But I hate financial collapse even more. If you think that a couple of Trillion is costly [although much of TARP will be paid back by 2011 or sooner] AND IT IS, you don't want to count the costs of failure. If we had experienced a collapse in the financial sector, we would have ended up with gross debt of $25T minimum as we started to rebuild. Global unemployment would have gone toxic. The cascade would have dropped home values to 25%, equity in this country would not exist. Retirement accounts in this country would only exist in Gold and tangible assets.

Every model I have looked at, and the Econ forum as spewed twenty or so from Stanford [forum home] to Chicago, MIT, Harvard, Duke, USC, Arizona, London, Oxford, Milan and others. There has not been a single model that has not suggested that a global meltdown would have occurred if there had not been global intervention when there was. And we are still not out of the woods.

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post #149 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-22-2009, 10:43 PM
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Hugo Chavez couldn't have said it better. In fact....
But I note that again you have no solutions, no contra proposals, no insightful thought...just snipes.

Rush couldn't have said it better.

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post #150 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-22-2009, 10:46 PM
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But I note that again you have no solutions, no contra proposals, no insightful thought...just snipes.

Rush couldn't have said it better.
Not all change is progress; contraproposals are not required. Based on the amount of borrowing required we just cannot afford massive healthcare reform even if it were a workable solution. See my other comments about Dems lacking principles, having mostly just policies.

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