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post #121 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
Great, so you're fully on board with universal healthcare-cool. Welcome to the fold
we agree on premise, disagree on outcome.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #122 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 11:07 PM
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The same benefits of history accrue to all of us. My current estate is due to my own efforts (and failings!) as a sedimentation upon that which was laid down in prior epochs.

If I work my a$$ off and maintain little more than economic mediocrity, does that mean you, who through inheritance or luck or hard work have amassed great wealth, are obligated to divest yourself of a proportionate share of your wealth ... to my needs? Who defines my needs: Me or you?

To extort from you that which is yours, for the benefit of the less fortunate, is to enslave the producers for the benefit of the consumer. That is sin.

On the other hand, if you, of your own free will and initiative, wish to provide from your wealth to the benefit of others, that is your virtue, won of freedom, nurtured by your labor.

No greater accolade could be bestowed upon you than that you gave your life for your brother. No greater sin could be perpetrated than to force you to live for the benefit of another.

B
Now you are changing the original question somewhat.

Your current estate is due to your own efforts? What philanthropist built the school in which you got your education? Some state and federal tax money was used, provided by taxpayers who might not have liked their tax dollars going to dumb ol schools; unless you went to a private school in which all was from philanthropy. Some of your current estate came from the establishment of your profession, the building blocks that allow YOU to do the work that you do at the salary or hourly rates that you make.

Who defines needs? Certainly not you or me, we pay taxes on gasoline or income or schools or utilities or airline tickets.

I pay school taxes even though I don't have kids. Others pay school taxes even though they are 20 and single or 50 and the kids are out of the house. Yet we all still pay school taxes. You and I don't decide that need. It is decided. Why?

Well, it is determined that we all, as a society benefit from a strong school system [we don't always get what we pay for] and that, we all pay because a pool of graduates makes all businesses better, makes all workers smarter, makes everyone have a better opportunity to experience the American dream.

That very same argument can be made for a healthy America. The two biggest investments this county can make are in improving the health and the smarts of this country. A strong, healthy, smart country has a better opportunity to grow than one that is not.

Altruism and charity are both wonderful things. They were, for many years the backbone of this nation. We have seen, however as the country has grown and we have become a more self centered and money interested nation that some of that charity has waned. Also the sheer volume of people has increased and the number of people in poverty has increased. Altruism and charity have not kept up.

In the argument of health care that charity would be from the Insurance industry, not individual "donors" as folks in need of insurance would look to insurance companies for assistance. History has shown that, given the opportunity to address this health insurance gap in coverage by themselves, the insurance industry has failed completely. They have shown zero interest in altruism or charity to help those in NEED, nor have they shown interest in providing affordable coverage for those who are outside group plans.

McBear,
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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #123 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 11:11 PM
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I have no collective guilt. If you fail or if you succeed, it's you. Not me.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #124 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 11:13 PM
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God, that makes me want to cry. Did you write that without the help of a teleprompter? And you did it all without using the word "collective"!

Now you can gag me with a spoon.
I suppose you believe that you made it all on your own.

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post #125 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 11:15 PM
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I have no collective guilt. If you fail or if you succeed, it's you. Not me.

B
Conversely, you believe that only you are responsible for your success?

That no outside forces influenced it in any fashion?

McBear,
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post #126 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 11:20 PM
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Conversely, you believe that only you are responsible for your success?

That no outside forces influenced it in any fashion?
There is no implied converse.

Again:
The same benefits of history accrue to all of us. My current estate is due to my own efforts (and failings!) as a sedimentation upon that which was laid down in prior epochs.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #127 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 11:36 PM
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There is no implied converse.

Again:
The same benefits of history accrue to all of us. My current estate is due to my own efforts (and failings!) as a sedimentation upon that which was laid down in prior epochs.
So you just choose to ignore the sacrifices of generations before you when it comes time for you [us] to look at what is required of us to sacrifice for future generations.

Acknowledge them on the abstract but ignore them in the practical. That's a pretty convenient rationalization.

And how do you avoid the converse? You can't define the parameters of failure without defining the parameters of success, either implicitly or implied. .

McBear,
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post #128 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-21-2009, 05:22 AM Thread Starter
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My "real" position is that this should not be a function of any government, btw. It requires the infringement of one's liberty in favor of another. I prefer charity to remain voluntary.
If the power is moved to the states, our effective and efficient Executive and Legislative branches won't have much to do, except investigate each other for corruption and toe-tapping.

....seems to be about job security of a 535+ Washingtonians....
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post #129 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-21-2009, 05:25 AM Thread Starter
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I don't see that posited in your self-centered "your ass is mine" silliness.

Are we talking about Shane here, or the healthcare issue??
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post #130 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-21-2009, 05:58 AM
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I have only one question
Who is going to?
& How are they going to?
RATION
said state sponsered healthcare, with limited funding
My old granny needs a couple of million spent on her,
should give her a few more months,
like she is doting and beyond economic repair
but HEY its NOT my money I am for spending on her
my alcoholic uncle "needs" a new liver
My chain smoking Aunt needs a couple of new lungs
( but wont give up the ciggies)
My grossley overweight cousins want their stomach stapled
My ugly wife wants a face lift and a boob job, cos hey she is feeling suicidal ( that works) cos the Muslim girlies are getting their fannies stitched back up on the NHS, so as they can pass themselves off as virgins ( BBC news item)
and so on ad inifinitum
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