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post #111 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by edfreeman View Post
I say move it to the states for a couple reasons:

1. You know my position on the constitutionality of the federal government providing charity. State constitutions are what they are. States typically have the limitation they must balance their budgets (not sure if all of them do). That will provide confinement and expose the populace to the true costs of what they think they want.

2. That aside, the federal government isn't good at anything, and will screw this up. Send a big money bucket to DC, and there'll be a hoard of lobbyists with their hands in it, manipulating the process in their favor. It is too easy to stay under the radar in DC. I can provide you links to the GWB administration if you don't believe me (many of them will be BWOT threads).

3. We need to see more than one approach. Maybe not 50, but definitely more than 1. Of the 50, one will be best and should be manipulated.

My "real" position is that this should not be a function of any government, btw. It requires the infringement of one's liberty in favor of another. I prefer charity to remain voluntary.
Looks like I need to add Lobbyist reform to the start of that process. You are very correct that, with out it, problems will exist.

The thing that I see as the biggest disconnect to all of this is the opponents of a National plan seem to make the blanket assumption that it will be a government run plan while the proponents of the plan seem to think it will be a corporate run plan that is built by a group that includes government, corporate and health professionals to build a system that can then be run by corporate America.

And the other observation is that many keep saying that there has never been a government program that has worked well. I believe that TARP is going to make that argument fully moot in short order.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #112 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Accepting your figures as absolutely, perfectly accurate.

What is the justification of parasitizing my wealth for your well-being?
"Your" wealth came about due, as much as anything to the broader wealth of our country, much from the sacrifice of many previous generations. Some was through entrepreneurs, some was through deep sacrifice. Each generation is called upon to do something to better the country as a whole.

Our father's generation sent over 14 million of its sons [10% of its population] to fight wars]. The previous generation sacrificed as the country rebuilt from a devastating depression, with everyone pitching in to help everyone else in every way possible.

"Your" wealth, much like my wealth is fully hinged on the accomplishments and sacrifices of those who came before us and the decisions they made to make OUR lives better and to make OUR path easier. We have some of those decisions also. We are here for just a brief moment in time. Our decisions, good and bad stay long after we are gone. The ability for everyone to have reasonable healthcare seems to me to be one of those good decisions. Whether I pay X% taxes or X+1% taxes is not particularly relevant in the big picture.

McBear,
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post #113 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
"Your" wealth came about due, as much as anything to the broader wealth of our country, much from the sacrifice of many over generations. Some was through entrepreneurs, some was through deep sacrifice. Each generation is called upon to do something to better the country as a whole.

Our father's generation sent over 14 million of its sons [10% of its population] to fight wars]. The previous generation sacreficed as the country rebuilt from a devistating depression, with everyone pitching in to help everyone else in every way possible.

"Your" wealth, much like my wealth is fully hinged on the accomplishments and sacrifices of those who came before us and the decisions they made to make OUR lives better and to make OUR path easier. We have some of those decisions also. We are here for just a brief moment in time. Our decisions, good and bad stay long after we are gone. The ability for everyone to have reasonable healthcare seems to me to be one of those good decisions. Whether I pay X% taxes or X+1% taxes is not particularly relevant in the big picture.
Wird. Fools live on islands of false isolation and ignorance
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post #114 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
"Your" wealth came about due, as much as anything to the broader wealth of our country, much from the sacrifice of many previous generations. Some was through entrepreneurs, some was through deep sacrifice. Each generation is called upon to do something to better the country as a whole.

Our father's generation sent over 14 million of its sons [10% of its population] to fight wars]. The previous generation sacrificed as the country rebuilt from a devastating depression, with everyone pitching in to help everyone else in every way possible.

"Your" wealth, much like my wealth is fully hinged on the accomplishments and sacrifices of those who came before us and the decisions they made to make OUR lives better and to make OUR path easier. We have some of those decisions also. We are here for just a brief moment in time. Our decisions, good and bad stay long after we are gone. The ability for everyone to have reasonable healthcare seems to me to be one of those good decisions. Whether I pay X% taxes or X+1% taxes is not particularly relevant in the big picture.
+1.

Bravo Bear.
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post #115 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
"Your" wealth came about due, as much as anything to the broader wealth of our country, much from the sacrifice of many previous generations. Some was through entrepreneurs, some was through deep sacrifice. Each generation is called upon to do something to better the country as a whole.

Our father's generation sent over 14 million of its sons [10% of its population] to fight wars]. The previous generation sacrificed as the country rebuilt from a devastating depression, with everyone pitching in to help everyone else in every way possible.

"Your" wealth, much like my wealth is fully hinged on the accomplishments and sacrifices of those who came before us and the decisions they made to make OUR lives better and to make OUR path easier. We have some of those decisions also. We are here for just a brief moment in time. Our decisions, good and bad stay long after we are gone. The ability for everyone to have reasonable healthcare seems to me to be one of those good decisions. Whether I pay X% taxes or X+1% taxes is not particularly relevant in the big picture.
The same benefits of history accrue to all of us. My current estate is due to my own efforts (and failings!) as a sedimentation upon that which was laid down in prior epochs.

If I work my a$$ off and maintain little more than economic mediocrity, does that mean you, who through inheritance or luck or hard work have amassed great wealth, are obligated to divest yourself of a proportionate share of your wealth ... to my needs? Who defines my needs: Me or you?

To extort from you that which is yours, for the benefit of the less fortunate, is to enslave the producers for the benefit of the consumer. That is sin.

On the other hand, if you, of your own free will and initiative, wish to provide from your wealth to the benefit of others, that is your virtue, won of freedom, nurtured by your labor.

No greater accolade could be bestowed upon you than that you gave your life for your brother. No greater sin could be perpetrated than to force you to live for the benefit of another.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #116 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
"Your" wealth came about due, as much as anything to the broader wealth of our country, much from the sacrifice of many previous generations. Some was through entrepreneurs, some was through deep sacrifice. Each generation is called upon to do something to better the country as a whole.

Our father's generation sent over 14 million of its sons [10% of its population] to fight wars]. The previous generation sacrificed as the country rebuilt from a devastating depression, with everyone pitching in to help everyone else in every way possible.

"Your" wealth, much like my wealth is fully hinged on the accomplishments and sacrifices of those who came before us and the decisions they made to make OUR lives better and to make OUR path easier. We have some of those decisions also. We are here for just a brief moment in time. Our decisions, good and bad stay long after we are gone. The ability for everyone to have reasonable healthcare seems to me to be one of those good decisions. Whether I pay X% taxes or X+1% taxes is not particularly relevant in the big picture.
God, that makes me want to cry. Did you write that without the help of a teleprompter? And you did it all without using the word "collective"!

Now you can gag me with a spoon.

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God Bless the America we're trying to create.
--Hillary Rodham Clinton
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post #117 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
The same benefits of history accrue to all of us. My current estate is due to my own efforts (and failings!) as a sedimentation upon that which was laid down in prior epochs.

If I work my a$$ off and maintain little more than economic mediocrity, does that mean you, who through inheritance or luck or hard work have amassed great wealth, are obligated to divest yourself of a proportionate share of your wealth ... to my needs? Who defines my needs: Me or you?

To extort from you that which is yours, for the benefit of the less fortunate, is to enslave the producers for the benefit of the consumer. That is sin.

On the other hand, if you, of your own free will and initiative, wish to provide from your wealth to the benefit of others, that is your virtue, won of freedom, nurtured by your labor.

No greater accolade could be bestowed upon you than that you gave your life for your brother. No greater sin could be perpetrated than to force you to live for the benefit of another.

B
You, we and me all accrue benefits from public investments in k-12 education, fire and rescue, police services, unemployment insurance, roads, parks and recreation, environmental oversight, financial regulation, ad nauseum...even in that third world shithole you reside within. To omit those details from your philosophical/financial assessment is foolish.
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post #118 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:54 PM
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Y'all realize you are all correct, right?
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post #119 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
You, we and me all accrue benefits from public investments in k-12 education, fire and rescue, police services, unemployment insurance, roads, parks and recreation, environmental oversight, financial regulation, ad nauseum...even in that third world shithole you reside within. To omit those details from your philosophical/financial assessment is foolish.
Quoting from my previous:
The same benefits of history accrue to all of us. My current estate is due to my own efforts (and failings!) as a sedimentation upon that which was laid down in prior epochs.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #120 of 193 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Quoting from my previous:
The same benefits of history accrue to all of us. My current estate is due to my own efforts (and failings!) as a sedimentation upon that which was laid down in prior epochs.
Great, so you're fully on board with universal healthcare-cool. Welcome to the fold
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