Churchgoers more likely to back torture - Page 5 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #41 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 01:47 PM Thread Starter
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Dope, your case is closed.
Stu-pid KKKhristian says ''Actually 183 was not enough for that oxygen thief''.

Yeah, it wasn't difficult to wrap, was it?

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post #42 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 01:59 PM
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Done stalking for the day, wanker?
keep doping, dopey.



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post #43 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 02:40 PM
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Dave,
Here is a counter to your lefty post. Sorry I searched for a MSNBC article, but they seemed to not think it important. Get past the FOX and IBD parts and concentrate on the stats.

The Real Torturers
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Wednesday, April 29, 2009 4:20 PM PT

National Security: The media are reporting that two al-Qaida leaders were waterboarded a shocking 266 times on George Bush's watch. The narrative is in place and won't easily be dislodged, even if it's misleading.

When the Obama White House disclosed memos from the previous administration's discussions about terrorist interrogations, critics jumped at the chance to accuse, yet again, the Bush administration of torturing detainees.

Media reports that CIA agents had waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah 266 times stirred an already angry nest of political opponents who want to prosecute Bush officials for their tactics in the war on terrorism.

As has been said, a lie will make it halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on. Deceptive reporting operates at the same speed.

The truth, which is just now reaching for its boots, is that Mohammed and Zubaydah were not waterboarded a total of 266 times (183 alleged waterboardings in one month for Mohammed, the 9/11 architect, 83 for Zubaydah, an Osama bin Laden insider). They were waterboarded fewer than 15 times in all, according to the Red Cross, which has spoken to the men.

The larger numbers the media ran with to shock the public were not individual waterboarding sessions, but the number of times water was poured on them, with each pour lasting only seconds.

Credit Joseph Abrams of Fox News for finding a "U.S. official with knowledge of the interrogation process" who would explain the numbers.

The interrogators who performed the waterboarding process to pry lifesaving information out of Mohammed, Zubaydah and one other detainee were not mindless thugs under command of a malevolent regime in Washington, but CIA officers working under strict guidelines.

Limited to no more than five sessions a month, they would have had to waterboard Mohammed for more than three years to reach the alleged 183 sessions. While not impossible, it's unlikely.

Fox's clarification won't alter the media narrative that has been — and will be — endlessly repeated by those who can't get beyond their hatred for Bush and Dick Cheney. The sensational numbers are out there and have become part of the spin. Bush haters will continue to claim any treatment of detainees by the last administration that was less than indulgent is torture.

What's really been tortured is their sense of priority. They crave the approval of left-wing elitists here and in Europe more than they value their country's security.




Stu, why do you consider asking for a substantiating link a 'lefty post'?

If you and others want to differentiate between how many times he was strapped to the board, and how many time he was subjected to suffocation by water, that's your prerogative. Doesn't make you right, and doesn't seem like something Jesus would approve of.

Here's my presponse from post 22....



19 Apr 2009 09:25 pm
They Waterboarded Him 183 Times In One Month

One of the disadvantages of relying on a torture-regime for the facts about the torture they have been practising is that they have an interest in lying. And the job of a journalist in these matters - especially after the torrent of deception that came out of the Bush White House - is to exercise skepticism about the government's claims. National Review, in the Bush era, became a de facto propaganda arm for the government, and no more so than on the question of torture, an issue where one might have imagined a magazine steeped in traditional Catholic ethics, might have been just a little bit honest. But nah. So we had Deroy Murdock in one of the most repulsive columns ever printed in that magazine declaring

Waterboarding is something of which every American should be proud.

Not reluctantly forced to contemplate torture in the last act of desperation to save mass death. But proud. Nonetheless, Murdock was at pains to tell us:

U.S. and Pakistani authorities captured KSM on March 1, 2003 in Rawalpindi, Pakistan. KSM stayed mum for months, often answering questions with Koranic chants. Interrogators eventually waterboarded him — for just 90 seconds. KSM “didn’t resist,” one CIA veteran said in the August 13 issue of The New Yorker. “He sang right away. He cracked real quick.” Another CIA official told ABC News: “KSM lasted the longest under water-boarding, about a minute and a half, but once he broke, it never had to be used again.”

Oh really? From the 2005 Bradbury memo:

The CIA used the waterboard "at least 83 times during August 2002" in the interrogation of Zubaydah. IG Report at 90, and 183 times during March 2003 in the interrogation of KSM, see id. at 91.


In this, you see something that occurs in every instance of torture regimes justifying their stance. They invariably minimize what they have been doing, lie about what they found out, and refuse to allow transparency so that the rest of us can find a way back out of a labyrinth of untruth, pure force, and abandoned morals they have constructed. (I await NRO's and Murdock's correction.)

Moreover, it is worth pointing out that even if you accept the preposterous notion that waterboarding isn't torture - something no legal authority in human history ever has before Dick Cheney came along - and even if you accept the amazingly detailed limits that Bradbury placed on the frequency and severity of waterboarding to make it "legal," even then, we now know that the CIA violated those standards.

Here's Bradbury's unhinged Orwellian judgment of how much waterboarding stayed within the boundaries of legality:

[W]here authorized, it may be used for two "sessions" per day of up to two hours. During a session, water may be applied up to six times for ten seconds or longer (but never more than 40 seconds). In a 24-hour period, a detainee may be subjected to up to twelve minutes of water appliaction. See id. at 42. Additionally, the waterboard may be used on as many as five days during a 30-day approval period.


As emptywheel notes,

So: two two-hour sessions a day, with six applications of the waterboard each = 12 applications in a day. Though to get up to the permitted 12 minutes of waterboarding in a day (with each use of the waterboard limited to 40 seconds), you'd need 18 applications in a day. Assuming you use the larger 18 applications in one 24-hour period, and do 18 applications on five days within a month, you've waterboarded 90 times--still just half of what they did to KSM.

So even by the Bush-Cheney standards of legality, the waterboarders far exceeded what was allowed. They broke the law even by Bush's standards. And why, pray, is breaking the law in such a grave matter as a war crime no longer subject to prosecution or even investigation in the United States?


The US is a banana republic if this stuff is allowed to go unpunished. A banana republic with a torture apparatus.



The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan


Bradbury Torture Memo pdf

Last edited by isthisdave; 05-01-2009 at 02:42 PM.
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post #44 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 03:41 PM
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Only an idiot describes atheism as a religion or cult.
Definition of religion: A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices.

Doesn't that describe atheism? If not, what does?
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post #45 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 03:46 PM
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Definition of religion: A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices.

Doesn't that describe atheism? If not, what does?
hmmm



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post #46 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 03:47 PM
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@ Keyhole - You need to learn the difference between "AND" and "OR". Atheism does not encompass narratives, symbols, or practices.

Also, look up the term "belief".

belief definition | Dictionary.com

Quote:
-noun

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.
So no, atheism doesn't include beliefs, either. For fuck's sake.

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post #47 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 03:51 PM Thread Starter
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Definition of religion: A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices.

Doesn't that describe atheism? If not, what does?
Exactly how big a twat do you want to make yourself look?

Go to bed you daft old git.


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post #48 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 03:52 PM
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don't be pointing that thing at me Q..



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post #49 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 03:54 PM
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don't be pointing that thing at me Q..
You snuck in on me.
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post #50 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 04:00 PM
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lol.. it's all good.



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