Churchgoers more likely to back torture - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #21 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 10:30 AM
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Is there a link for that?
I could stoop to your level and tell you to Google it, but since I brought the subject up I will find it. Just for you. Ahhhhhh, I feel so superior.
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post #22 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 10:36 AM
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A real man would have substantiated his claim without such petty rancor.









19 Apr 2009 09:25 pm
They Waterboarded Him 183 Times In One Month

One of the disadvantages of relying on a torture-regime for the facts about the torture they have been practising is that they have an interest in lying. And the job of a journalist in these matters - especially after the torrent of deception that came out of the Bush White House - is to exercise skepticism about the government's claims. National Review, in the Bush era, became a de facto propaganda arm for the government, and no more so than on the question of torture, an issue where one might have imagined a magazine steeped in traditional Catholic ethics, might have been just a little bit honest. But nah. So we had Deroy Murdock in one of the most repulsive columns ever printed in that magazine declaring

Waterboarding is something of which every American should be proud.

Not reluctantly forced to contemplate torture in the last act of desperation to save mass death. But proud. Nonetheless, Murdock was at pains to tell us:

U.S. and Pakistani authorities captured KSM on March 1, 2003 in Rawalpindi, Pakistan. KSM stayed mum for months, often answering questions with Koranic chants. Interrogators eventually waterboarded him — for just 90 seconds. KSM “didn’t resist,” one CIA veteran said in the August 13 issue of The New Yorker. “He sang right away. He cracked real quick.” Another CIA official told ABC News: “KSM lasted the longest under water-boarding, about a minute and a half, but once he broke, it never had to be used again.”

Oh really? From the 2005 Bradbury memo:

The CIA used the waterboard "at least 83 times during August 2002" in the interrogation of Zubaydah. IG Report at 90, and 183 times during March 2003 in the interrogation of KSM, see id. at 91.

In this, you see something that occurs in every instance of torture regimes justifying their stance. They invariably minimize what they have been doing, lie about what they found out, and refuse to allow transparency so that the rest of us can find a way back out of a labyrinth of untruth, pure force, and abandoned morals they have constructed. (I await NRO's and Murdock's correction.)

Moreover, it is worth pointing out that even if you accept the preposterous notion that waterboarding isn't torture - something no legal authority in human history ever has before Dick Cheney came along - and even if you accept the amazingly detailed limits that Bradbury placed on the frequency and severity of waterboarding to make it "legal," even then, we now know that the CIA violated those standards.

Here's Bradbury's unhinged Orwellian judgment of how much waterboarding stayed within the boundaries of legality:

[W]here authorized, it may be used for two "sessions" per day of up to two hours. During a session, water may be applied up to six times for ten seconds or longer (but never more than 40 seconds). In a 24-hour period, a detainee may be subjected to up to twelve minutes of water appliaction. See id. at 42. Additionally, the waterboard may be used on as many as five days during a 30-day approval period.

As emptywheel notes,

So: two two-hour sessions a day, with six applications of the waterboard each = 12 applications in a day. Though to get up to the permitted 12 minutes of waterboarding in a day (with each use of the waterboard limited to 40 seconds), you'd need 18 applications in a day. Assuming you use the larger 18 applications in one 24-hour period, and do 18 applications on five days within a month, you've waterboarded 90 times--still just half of what they did to KSM.

So even by the Bush-Cheney standards of legality, the waterboarders far exceeded what was allowed. They broke the law even by Bush's standards. And why, pray, is breaking the law in such a grave matter as a war crime no longer subject to prosecution or even investigation in the United States?

The US is a banana republic if this stuff is allowed to go unpunished. A banana republic with a torture apparatus.

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post #23 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 11:12 AM
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Gimme a break, Dope.

This is the best you can come up with for a subject? And what is the source material?
Oh,CNN
Go figure.
I thought maybe it was the NY Times, but one in the same I guess.

Enjoy the subject folks, I won't waste my time on sided info.

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post #24 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by aardvark View Post
Gimme a break, Dope.

This is the best you can come up with for a subject? And what is the source material?
Oh,CNN
Go figure.
I thought maybe it was the NY Times, but one in the same I guess.

Enjoy the subject folks, I won't waste my time on sided info.

Aardvark
Would you be more at ease if it was Fox News?
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post #25 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 11:30 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aardvark View Post
Gimme a break, Dope.

This is the best you can come up with for a subject? And what is the source material?
Oh,CNN
Go figure.
I thought maybe it was the NY Times, but one in the same I guess.

Enjoy the subject folks, I won't waste my time on sided info.

Aardvark
Why is it not a valid subject? Because it makes white Christians look like retarded hypocrites, or just because YOU don't like it?

If you were a little brighter, you would have noticed that CNN is merely reporting this news. They did not conduct the poll. Thanks for exemplifying for me how blinkered radical religious apologists always are. Don't shoot the messenger. Read the message and make a reasoned comment on it if that's within your limited capabilities.

Here's a link to the pollsters to give you a little head start. Come back to me if you experience difficulty with any of the long words.

Pew Forum: About the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" - Seneca
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post #26 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Dope
Thanks for exemplifying for me how blinkered radical religious apologists always are. Don't shoot the messenger.

If it weren't for a "shot" messenger, they'd have no religion. They're just passing it forward.....
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post #27 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 11:42 AM
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Not for nothing but the headline is trying to cast Churchgoers as hypocrites. Kind of like the old Dr.s and Guns thing:

- There are 700,000 physicians in the United States.
-- There are 120,000 accidental deaths in the United States caused by physicians every year, and the accidental death percentage per physician is 0.171.
-- There are 80 million gun owners in the United States.
-- There are 1,500 accidental deaths from guns every year, regardless of age group, and the accidental death percentage per gun owner is 0.0000188.

This means, that doctors are 9,000 times more deadly than gun owners.

Same exact thing and just as absurd. You trumpet it because it is from CNN. The same network that unabashedly puts out stuff such as this:



Hey guys, just pointing out you need to be careful where you get your information from. I mean we have to see if it is from an acceptable source before we can even talk about the assertions.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #28 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
Not for nothing but the headline is trying to cast Churchgoers as hypocrites. Kind of like the old Dr.s and Guns thing:

- There are 700,000 physicians in the United States.
-- There are 120,000 accidental deaths in the United States caused by physicians every year, and the accidental death percentage per physician is 0.171.
-- There are 80 million gun owners in the United States.
-- There are 1,500 accidental deaths from guns every year, regardless of age group, and the accidental death percentage per gun owner is 0.0000188.

This means, that doctors are 9,000 times more deadly than gun owners.

Same exact thing and just as absurd. You trumpet it because it is from CNN. The same network that unabashedly puts out stuff such as this:



Hey guys, just pointing out you need to be careful where you get your information from. I mean we have to see if it is from an acceptable source before we can even talk about the assertions.

Do you NEVER read before you spout Corky?

Have another look at post no.25

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" - Seneca
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post #29 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 11:48 AM
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Good Point TNTRower.

Dope, Ya got issues.
Ya sure are a hater of christians, like most atheists, but it doesn't work the other way around.
I'll say a prayer for you as well as anyone who is tortured (by the way) and ya did your part and drew me back into the subject temporarily.
Now I'm done, no matter how further critical you may get (as was the basis you chose for the subject matter in the first place.)

Aardvark
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post #30 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dope View Post
Do you NEVER read before you spout Corky?

Have another look at post no.25
I'm sorry did PEW write the headline?

Your reading skills are off a bit. My whole point besides CNN being inept and racist, is that numbers can be made to say anything.

I wonder what the actual question is?

Now let's actually put some thought into this shall we?

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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