Churchgoers more likely to back torture - Page 14 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #131 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 09:37 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 2014 E250 Bluetec 4-Matic, 1983 240D 4-Speed
Location: USA
Posts: 9,257
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by aardvark View Post
Again, Jim , and Obncgar
Define torture, and who says I support it? Sounds like your reading something into what I wrote, eh?
I will defend my own. Nothing unscriptural about that, but I don't go out looking for a fight. Self defense, or the defense of your land or country is not unscriptural. Your "turn the other cheek" has a differing meaning than it did in the days of Jesus, by the way, so don't fall back on that.
And as far as me talking down and then defending the churches on the other side. It is not that I believe all churches are defensible. There are some, however that do the right thing, and churches, in general are a good meeting place of like minds. It is rough to find one that does teach gospel principles and live them at the same time, but they are out there. Are they flawless? NO! They are inhabited by humans, and we are not flawless. You work around the flaws to the best of your ability and pray for guidance.

Seems like you want to pick apart the fine points, but negate the important points.
Important Point: Seek and Believe in Christ, or suffer the consequences. That's as simple as it gets. John ch3
The fine points come later.

Aardvark
I have a simple definition of torture - I rely on our past as a nation, which for 200 years or more ALWAYS took the path less travelled when confronted with a decision on whether an existing practice of any kind was found to be "cruel and unusual" or otherwise to be purposefully offensive to humans or other forms of life on earth. By that standard anything that can be construed as torture that is undertaken at the direction of our government is a violation of our Constitution and should be an offense to Christian, Muslim, Jewish, atheist, or "you name it" sensibilities. Spending time parsing the "fine points" on this subject appears to be something you and others find worthwhile. I would prefer we, as Americans, just agree we don't want that shit on our hands. It doesn't wash off - just ask a German kid who has come back from a class field trip to Dachau to get a view of what his now expiring generation of ancestors did given a set of stressful circumstances at the end of the Weimarer Republik. Germany will never escape the shame of the holocaust, and rightly so. America does not need a similar stain, or Scarlet Letter imprinted like a watermark on its history from now on.

I also see you feel it is ok to interpret the words in the Bible. Let's hope that is not some super selective, you are the only one to determine what is out of date and needs to be reinterpreted conditional allowance you have from god. In fact, I propose you reevaluate the relevance of the quote you added at the end. In some cases you sound almost reasonable, and then you impulsively inject a line like "Important Point: Seek and Believe in Christ, or suffer the consequences. That's as simple as it gets. John ch3" and fail to realize how that phrase is in direct conflict with the US Constitution - presuming you are suggesting the consequences are you burn in Hell for eternity. Yeah, there's a really Christian concept - live a life that follows the precepts and teachings of Jesus Christ, but worship in a different church, and you go to Hell. How fucking arrogant, ignorant, and self righteous! The exact cause for religious whackiness that leads to atrocities being committed in the name of Jesus Christ, who would never condone anything violent against another human being in his name, were he here.

This is where the religious = goodness premise falls apart and all religious fanatics sound the same as they justify whatever they do in the name of their god. It is fundamentally bullshit. Sorry Aardvark.

Jim

Last edited by JimSmith; 05-04-2009 at 09:40 AM.
JimSmith is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #132 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 09:41 AM
Surely A Large Human
 
Qubes's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jun 2006
Vehicle: '08 C219
Location: Between Earth and Mars
Posts: 34,250
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 493 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by aardvark View Post
Again, Jim , and Obncgar
Define torture, and who says I support it? Sounds like your reading something into what I wrote, eh?
I will defend my own. Nothing unscriptural about that, but I don't go out looking for a fight. Self defense, or the defense of your land or country is not unscriptural. Your "turn the other cheek" has a differing meaning than it did in the days of Jesus, by the way, so don't fall back on that.
And as far as me talking down and then defending the churches on the other side. It is not that I believe all churches are defensible. There are some, however that do the right thing, and churches, in general are a good meeting place of like minds. It is rough to find one that does teach gospel principles and live them at the same time, but they are out there. Are they flawless? NO! They are inhabited by humans, and we are not flawless. You work around the flaws to the best of your ability and pray for guidance.

Seems like you want to pick apart the fine points, but negate the important points.
Important Point: Seek and Believe in Christ, or suffer the consequences. That's as simple as it gets. John ch3
The fine points come later.

Aardvark
Try practicing what you preach, you fucking hypocrite. Have you not yet read the scripture of Matthew I quoted earlier, that could be NO MORE CLEAR on Jesus' teachings regarding treatment of one's enemies?

Here's a short version of it: It does NOT say "Love thy neighbor, unless you think he might hurt your family, then get medieval on his ass." And you fucking well know it.

Quote:
Matthew 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;


You have come to exemplify everything that is wrong with religion and the mind-numbing effects faith has on a person. When the phrase "too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good" was coined, they were talking about someone just like you.

You consistently cite the scripture when it suits you, and when it doesn't, you play this fantastic game where you get to bend and redefine terminology and deal in semantics and debate "intent". You're now fully exposed as the hypocrite virtually everyone else of faith I've met really is at heart, and like them, I'm done with you.
Qubes is offline  
post #133 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 09:41 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Stuantle's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,871
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSmith View Post
So, I am not here to argue with you about whether god exists or not. I entered this discussion because there seems to be a streak of pompous, self righteous, hypocrisy in that group of people who go to church, loudly claim their allegiance to god, and then find it ok to torture people and I wanted to find out if there was any chance that such people might look inward and see what hollow pieces of shit they are.

So far, it appears not.

Jim
Herin lies the issue with non-believers who have an axe to grind with Christianity.

If I say the word "crap", many people will jump up and down in hysteria screaming Hypocrite!!! "You are a bad Christian"! "How can you claim to be a Christian when you say things like that?" Do want to judge me? Become a Christian and show me how it's done. I'm still learning, every day.

People think you are a fraud unless you are the exact moral equivalent of Christ. I have stated several times before that Christ was not this wimpy pushover that sat around with a weepy look on his face. He was a tough dude that people listened to followed, believed, and obeyed. He trashed the Temple and shouted down people that would just as soon stick a knife in your ribs as look at you. He showed up in town to GET arrested so as to confront the evil around him.

Research "turn the other cheek". It doesn't mean what you think it means. Read, read, read. Never did Christ (God) ever tell someone not to defend themselves. Never. Check multiple sources and you will find a common thread on why it was said.
Stuantle is offline  
post #134 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 09:44 AM
Surely A Large Human
 
Qubes's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jun 2006
Vehicle: '08 C219
Location: Between Earth and Mars
Posts: 34,250
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 493 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuantle View Post
Herin lies the issue with non-believers who have an axe to grind with Christianity.

If I say the word "crap", many people will jump up and down in hysteria screaming Hypocrite!!! "You are a bad Christian"! "How can you claim to be a Christian when you say things like that?" Do want to judge me? Become a Christian and show me how it's done. I'm still learning, every day.

People think you are a fraud unless you are the exact moral equivalent of Christ. I have stated several times before that Christ was not this wimpy pushover that sat around with a weepy look on his face. He was a tough dude that people listened to followed, believed, and obeyed. He trashed the Temple and shouted down people that would just as soon stick a knife in your ribs as look at you. He showed up in town to GET arrested so as to confront the evil around him.

Research "turn the other cheek". It doesn't mean what you think it means. Read, read, read. Never did Christ (God) ever tell someone not to defend themselves. Never. Check multiple sources and you will find a common thread on why it was said.
READ READ READ this, you hypocrite. If you're going to toss around the scripture like it's your personal hammer of justice, you'd better know it forward and back.

Quote:
Matthew 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Qubes is offline  
post #135 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 09:58 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 2014 E250 Bluetec 4-Matic, 1983 240D 4-Speed
Location: USA
Posts: 9,257
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuantle View Post
Herin lies the issue with non-believers who have an axe to grind with Christianity.

If I say the word "crap", many people will jump up and down in hysteria screaming Hypocrite!!! "You are a bad Christian"! "How can you claim to be a Christian when you say things like that?" Do want to judge me? Become a Christian and show me how it's done. I'm still learning, every day.

People think you are a fraud unless you are the exact moral equivalent of Christ. I have stated several times before that Christ was not this wimpy pushover that sat around with a weepy look on his face. He was a tough dude that people listened to followed, believed, and obeyed. He trashed the Temple and shouted down people that would just as soon stick a knife in your ribs as look at you. He showed up in town to GET arrested so as to confront the evil around him.

Research "turn the other cheek". It doesn't mean what you think it means. Read, read, read. Never did Christ (God) ever tell someone not to defend themselves. Never. Check multiple sources and you will find a common thread on why it was said.
People are humans and in very stressful circumstances do some phenomenally bad shit in some cases, and in others, do some phenomenally heroic and good shit. No one is suggesting that in the heat of battle you are supposed to turn the other cheek instead of defend yourself. So quit with the diversionary tactic of arguing minutiae at the distant horizon of the subject at hand.

What we are saying is, in the cool, calm environment of our relatively safe from immediate physical danger towns, cities and wide open places where we live, the debate on torture is one where an intellectual assessment of the goodness or badness of it should be the rule. No fat assed lawyer working in the White House should be writing opinions that torture is an allowable practice for Americans to subject prisoners in their care to, in places far removed from the battlefield, over and over for months. And, anyone suggesting there is some fine line between what is and what is not torture without having been subjected to repeated experiences, personally, that give him the real perspective needed to be able to actually distinguish torture from something slightly less and so describe that limit, is bullshitting. They have no authority, other than as a fat assed lawyer working for a President or Vice President that also has no specific experience to base such a distinction on, and is therefore unqualified to even ask for such a legal opinion.

And, it seems to me, you Christians are mighty sensitive about this subject - I thought the term was "churchgoers" and as I take it, that means people who regularly go to worship their god in a local or community facility - can be any faith, no requirement that it be Christian. And my attitude about this issue is not specifically directed at Christians. You Christians must be feeling guilty.

Jim
JimSmith is offline  
post #136 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 09:58 AM
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
You don't get it Q, Stu has tried to explain it over and over. It doesn't mean what it says, it means what Stu wants it to mean. Oh yeah, and Jesus was a Ninja.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
post #137 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 09:58 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Stuantle's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,871
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Q,
That's right. Hate is one of the worst things you can do to yourself. It eats you from the inside. You can hate the behavior, but love the person. Praying for your enemies is a powerful thing to do, obviously more powerful than you realize. I have seen the power of prayer work. It is real.
Stuantle is offline  
post #138 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 10:02 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Stuantle's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,871
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
You don't get it Q, Stu has tried to explain it over and over. It doesn't mean what it says, it means what Stu wants it to mean.
Petty and arrogant. I did not state my personal view for reasons personified in your snarky post. Read for yourself. Get informed and don't take just my opinion. I am just one man.
Stuantle is offline  
post #139 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 10:03 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 2014 E250 Bluetec 4-Matic, 1983 240D 4-Speed
Location: USA
Posts: 9,257
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuantle View Post
Q,
That's right. Hate is one of the worst things you can do to yourself. It eats you from the inside. You can hate the behavior, but love the person. Praying for your enemies is a powerful thing to do, obviously more powerful than you realize. I have seen the power of prayer work. It is real.
So, do you pray that waterboarding works? How does this peripheral bullshit contribute to understanding why churchgoers seem more apt than the non-churchgoers in the country to approve of torture?

Jim
JimSmith is offline  
post #140 of 279 (permalink) Old 05-04-2009, 10:04 AM
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
Pretty sure we all read it Stu. "Turn the other cheek" does not mean "turn the other cheek". And Jesus was a Ninja. As Drew deftly pointed out to you many, many posts ago, your online persona seems a lot more Roman than Christian.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Similar Threads
    Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
    Torture or medicine eric242340 Off-Topic 21 06-27-2008 02:24 PM
    Mercedes Torture? Teutone Off-Topic 6 01-08-2008 01:06 AM
    seems we torture our own too mzsmbs Off-Topic 2 07-19-2006 11:59 AM
    Bush makes important speech on torture, saying "We do not torture" FeelTheLove Off-Topic 13 11-09-2005 11:13 AM
    Torture... Thinkingaboutit R171 SLK-Class 4 10-22-2005 08:59 PM

    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome