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post #31 of 56 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 08:41 PM
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Hate to see it too. as an X-Detroiter, but they did dig their own hole, to a degree. Ford saw it coming and will most likely survive, as they have in the past. GM, looks like they are close to filing as well. The problem is that our tax dollars got dumped in a company now filing. That money is now probably lost.

Yeah always loved the 128, but new better. I opted for MG's and euro Fords (Lincoln Merc, Capri's). I currently have a "72" Saab 96, with a V4 ford engine. I nickname it "The Clown Car" . Still starts and runs well, but what a difference technology has made.

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post #32 of 56 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by p100 View Post
You are not kidding. Fiat and Alfa Romeo reliability is on the bottom of the heap among European makes.

Do you remember Fiat 128s, mid engined X19s, Spyders, Stradas, and Bravas in the late 70's and early 80's? None of them were successful in the US due to numerous problems and poor reliability. And Yugo, introduced to the US market in the late 80's was nothing more than Fiat 124 manufactured under license in Yugoslavia. It too proved to be a dismal failure.

The only worse make I can think of is Renault. Renault actually built a manufacturing plant in Kenosha Wisconsin, which built Renault Alliance cars. The quality and reliability was so bad that the plant was shut down and Renault left the US market.

I hate to predict this, but partnership with Fiat is the beginning of the end for Chrysler.
This is not the 70s any more. At that time Toyotas and Hondas also sucked.

Looking at one of Britains consumer buyer guides, it looks like Fiat places throughout the line, with their more expensive cars toward the top and their less expensive ones toward the bottom [sound familiar]

From 2005
1. Honda Accord (99-03)
2. Honda Civic (96-01)
3. Rover 25 (99-05)
4. Volvo V40 (96-04)
5. Volvo S40 (96-04)
6. Nissan Micra (98-02)
7. Nissan Primera (96-99)
8. Mercedes CLK (97-02)
9. Audi A4 (01-)
10. Ford Ka (96-)
11. Peugeot 206 CC (00-)
12. Toyota Avensis (97-03)
13. Vauxhall Corsa (93-00)
14. Vauxhall Astra (98-04)
15. BMW 3-series Compact (94-01)
16. Land Rover Discovery (89-98)
17. Fiat Brava (96-02)
18. Citroen Xsara (97-05)
19. Rover 45 (99-05)
20. Audi A3 (96-03)
21. Mercedes C-class (00-)
22. BMW Z3 (96-03)
23. BMW 3-Series (01-05)
24. BMW 3-series (99-01)
25. Volkswagen Polo (00-02)
26. Saab 900 (93-98)
27. Volkswagen Golf (92-97)
28. Ford Puma (97-02)
29. Ford Focus (98-04)
30. Peugeot 406 (96-99)
31. Fiat Punto (99-03)
32. Peugeot 306 (97-01)
33. Vauxhall Vectra (99-02)
34. Nissan Micra (93-98)
35. Citroen C5 (01-)
36. Mercedes M-Class (98-05)
37. Rover 75 (99-05)
38. Mercedes SLK (96-04)
39. Volkswagen Polo (94-00)
40. Renault Clio (98-)
41. Vauxhall Zafira (99-05)
42. Ford Mondeo (96-00)
43. BMW 5-series (96-03)
44. Ford Mondeo (00-03)
45. Peugeot 206 (98-)
46. Citroen Saxo (96-04)
47. Vauxhall Vectra (95-99)
48. Ford Escort (90-01)
49. Ford Fiesta (96-02)
50. Porsche Boxster (96-)
51. Volkswagen Bora (99-)
52. Mercedes E-Class (99-02)
53. Alfa Romeo 156 (03-)
54. Alfa Romeo 156 (98-03)
55. BMW 3-series (91-99)
56. Ford Galaxy (95-00)
57. Renault Clio (91-98)
58. Land Rover Discovery (98-03)
59. Rover 400 (95-99)
60. Saab 9-3 (98-02)
61. Volkswagen Passat (97-05)
62. Vauxhall Omega (99-04)
63. Rover 200 (96-99)
64. Peugeot 306 (93-97)
65. Jaguar S-Type (98-)
66. Jaguar XJ8 (97-03)
67. Volvo V70 (96-00)
68. MG MGF (95-02)
69. Renault Megane (99-02)
70. Citroen Xantia (93-01)
71. Rover 600 (93-99)
72. Volkswagen Golf (97-04)
73. Ford Scorpio (95-98)
74. Audi A6 (97-04)
75. Vauxhall Omega (94-00)
76. Land Rover Freelander (00-)
77. Renault Laguna (94-98)
78. Peugeot 406 (99-)
79. Mercedes A-class (98-05)
80. Vauxhall Astra (91-98)
81. Volkswagen Sharan (95-00)
82. Chrysler Cherokee (93-)
83. Volvo S80 (98-)
84. Fiat Bravo (96-02)
85. Land Rover Range Rover (95-02)
86. Renault Megane (96-99)
87. Audi A4 (95-01)
88. Volvo V70 (00-)
89. Rover 800 (91-99)
90. Alfa Romeo 147 (00-)
91. Fiat Punto (94-99)
92. Jaguar XK8 (96-)
93. Fiat Coupe (95-01)
94. Renault Laguna (00-)
95. Saab 9-5 (97-01)
96. Land Rover Freelander (97-00)
97. BMW 7-series (94-02)
98. Saab 9000 CS (91-97)
99. Audi TT (99-)
100. Renault Espace (97-02)

What Car? Reliability Survey - The top 100 cars - What Car?

Hard to know how they will stack up in today's market that is flooded with Kia, Suzuki, Hyundai and soon Chery and Tata [though I would imagine the name will change before it hits the US, otherwise folks will think you have to buy them by the pair]

McBear,
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post #33 of 56 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 10:31 PM
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I'm surprised that no one has commented on the irony of Chrysler being commanded by the President (work with me here, bear) to merge with Fiat.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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post #34 of 56 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 10:41 PM Thread Starter
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post #35 of 56 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Digmenow View Post
I'm surprised that no one has commented on the irony of Chrysler being commanded by the President (work with me here, bear) to merge with Fiat.
I'm trying but maybe I am missing something.

Where was the command? Chrysler was the one to scramble and find a buyer/partner or crash and burn [the part of having investment bankers as owners instead of an actual car company management chain].

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post #36 of 56 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 10:46 PM
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That Lincoln was the shit.

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post #37 of 56 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 10:50 PM
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Just doing some quick checking and, since this time last year Cerberus has tried to dance with GM, Ford, Nissan/Renault and then Fiat.

They also tried something with Chery but that seems to have aborted from the getgo.

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post #38 of 56 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 11:00 PM Thread Starter
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Dig is on the socialization hatred band wagon. Bear is politely pointing out holes. Shane is trying in vain to turn things inanely toward himself. Qubes is still yet from Oklahoma. GS is on the MF'r. Questions?
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post #39 of 56 (permalink) Old 05-02-2009, 04:04 AM
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Digmenow.
That lincoln was bulletproof. Both were 73's and the 4cyl was fast (for a 4), well balanced and lasted to 175K miles under torturous conditions (Me, I beat the crap out of it ) Bought it new. Repairs were minimal. A clutch (self induced) and alternator were the worst repairs. Bought the v-6 model which was lightning fast but nose heavy in corners.
Still quite dependable.

Yeah, Obama doesn't want to run the auto companies (he says) , but banks are another story (in my opinion). Chryslers govt ownership is supposed to be near 10% from the last news report I heard. GM , on the other hand could be closer to 50%. Sad part is anytime this government gets their hand in ownership of anything it seems to get inefficient. The Postal Service is the best example.

A side note.
Is it me, or did I notice MB dependability drop when involved with Chrysler? I'm running a 96 E-320 and from threads I have read, I fear an upgrade to never models.

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post #40 of 56 (permalink) Old 05-02-2009, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
I'm trying but maybe I am missing something.

Where was the command? Chrysler was the one to scramble and find a buyer/partner or crash and burn [the part of having investment bankers as owners instead of an actual car company management chain].
I ASKED you to work with me but now you make me go and find a source that you will find credible. Fine...but I'm not bolding the bits for you that show the government's hand in this. It's not THAT much of a stretch. Man, you're such a buzzkill.

Please report to the a$$ thread for re-education therapy.



Where's Obama's steering Chrysler?

What the car company needs to do is build cars people want, but that's not a sure thing with the government at the wheel.
May 1, 2009

President Obama sounded downright triumphant Thursday morning when he announced the deal his aides negotiated to help Chrysler avoid liquidation. The centerpiece is a collaboration between the troubled automaker and Italian manufacturer Fiat, which will supply new technology and international distribution. "It's a partnership that will save more than 30,000 jobs at Chrysler and tens of thousands of jobs at suppliers, dealers and other businesses that rely on this company," Obama declared.

His optimism reflects a belief that, even though Chrysler has filed for bankruptcy protection, the sweeping cuts agreed to by workers and banks will help the automaker emerge quickly and compete successfully over the long haul. Chrysler's prospects will certainly brighten as a result of the deal, which would buy out commercial lenders at 29 cents on the dollar, convert about $8 billion in taxpayer loans to equity and pay a retiree healthcare fund with company stock instead of cash. But the plans for a "New Chrysler" seem to overlook the most important factor in the company's survival: making cars that people want to buy.

In essence, the administration is pinning its hopes for Chrysler on Fiat's ability to make more fuel-efficient engines and smaller cars. Under the deal brokered by Obama's automobile task force, the Italian automaker will get 20% of Chrysler in exchange for its technology and overseas dealership network. It will receive an additional 10% if it uses U.S. factories to manufacture high-tech engines and a car capable of getting 40 miles per gallon. But making more efficient engines and higher-mileage cars won't necessarily yield products that are compelling to U.S. consumers. Increasing fuel efficiency is a laudable government policy that American car buyers have yet to embrace in a meaningful way. The demand for small cars rises when the price of gasoline spikes, and it tumbles when gas prices fall.

Obama said Wednesday that he had no desire to "micromanage" the automakers. The administration will pick four of the nine members of Chrysler's new board of directors, but officials insist that their selections will be independent, not agents of federal policy. Yet it's hard to believe those directors won't share Obama's view on what automakers ought to be producing. And the government's vision isn't necessarily one that will guide Chrysler back to health.

The struggles in Detroit have presented a huge challenge for the administration. Chrysler and GM are too big to survive in their current form, but private lenders haven't been willing to support them through a restructuring. Faced with a precipitous collapse, the Bush and Obama administrations understandably decided to extend a temporary lifeline, assuring that the government would play some role in remodeling the companies. But putting government officials in control of that process is a mixed blessing at best; they may be able to minimize the time spent in bankruptcy proceedings, but they can't focus on the manufacturers' bottom line. Instead, they're bound by the administration's broader economic and social policies. If Chrysler and GM aren't free to make the products that people want to buy, they'll spend the rest of their days dependent on government aid.

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