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post #31 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-20-2009, 08:16 PM
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Bear deserves a medal. Someone give the Bear a medal will ya? I mean come on!
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post #32 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-20-2009, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
I think all the free airtime for promotion of the events, on nearly every talk radio would be considered by most definitions sponsorship.

Using your list, you fall much closer to Conservative than many of your peers on this board. Here is the main place that I see a very mixed message. It is not intended to paint you into a corner of confront, just to point out a mixed message that makes no sense to me:

You say that you did not support Bush and his spending but, up until the end of the election cycle there was no indication of that.
You say you don't believe in spending more than you bring in which suggests that you don't believe in increasing the National Debt or Deficit Spending.
You say that you don't believe in the NeoConservative philosophy, but instead the Conservative philosophy.

But, at nearly every chance you promote tax cuts and deregulation, the two hallmarks of the NeoConservative Economic Doctrine since 1981. And that Doctrine has generated $9Trillion in National Debt, JUST for the three Presidents who implemented Supply Side Economics and who proposed and promoted deregulation. When you add in your support for McCain or, should I refer to it as hatred of Obama for the past six months strongly suggests more NeoCon than conservative.

A bit back, while looking for a string of words I found this thread. I also found the string of words.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/off-...ml#post3079619
We have been over the treaty discussion time and again. I disagree with you that Bush violated the Geneva convention. You disagree with me. Suffice it to say that doing so I would consider a "High crime & misdemeanor" if he did and would want an impeachment hearing and then trial in the Senate. Apparently Obama disagreed with that sentiment back on the campaign trail and to this day continues backing up Bush Policies with his inaction.

Go back and look here "I am not for the Bailout"

That is just one of the posts that I have said repeatedly I was against the bailout. As for the other times that the obscene spending bills came up that were not directly related to the War on Terror you can look for yourself.

Now I like how you are working the mischaracterization angle again when you say:

Quote:
But, at nearly every chance you promote tax cuts and deregulation, the two hallmarks of the NeoConservative Economic Doctrine since 1981.
You mischaracterize by leaving out the fact that I have also said "Repsonsible spending" has to go along with that. Not to mention that I have also always said "responsible deregulation."

Your problem McBare is that you only see what you want to see in other people's posts.

As for my comment about being a libertarian I still classify myself in the political realm as such. When I say conservative I am talking about my principals.

Surely you can understand the difference.

You also go on to glurge about Labor Safety Regulations, Food Safety Regulations, and Financial Sector Regulation.

Please in the immortal words of yourself, provide examples of what you are talking about and how the lack of enforcement is systemic and causes harm. Not to mention that in the financial sector we see that the regulations were the problems. Not the lack of enforcement.

So please McBare, enlighten us. The great unwashed are thirsty for your word.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #33 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-20-2009, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Shane View Post
Bear deserves a medal. Someone give the Bear a medal will ya? I mean come on!
He deserves a medal as much as Murtha does I guess.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #34 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-20-2009, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
You mischaracterize by leaving out the fact that I have also said "Repsonsible spending" has to go along with that. Not to mention that I have also always said "responsible deregulation."

Your problem McBare is that you only see what you want to see in other people's posts.

As for my comment about being a libertarian I still classify myself in the political realm as such. When I say conservative I am talking about my principals.

Surely you can understand the difference.

You also go on to glurge about Labor Safety Regulations, Food Safety Regulations, and Financial Sector Regulation.

Please in the immortal words of yourself, provide examples of what you are talking about and how the lack of enforcement is systemic and causes harm. Not to mention that in the financial sector we see that the regulations were the problems. Not the lack of enforcement.

So please McBare, enlighten us. The great unwashed are thirsty for your word.
You SAY responsible spending yet supported McCain and the rest of the Republicans who voted for all the Deficit Spending. Apparently you want it both ways. And you SAY you want "responsible deregulation" yet never seem to come up with any hard examples other than the tried and true NeoCon songs. Again, you seem to want it both ways. You want to SAY that you are Libertarian and Conservative but you ACT like any normal NeoCon on most issues [you do spin off on some].

As for Labor/Food Safety and Financial Sector Regulations, I have posted more than enough on Financial Sector. Let's look at Labor for a moment. Let's focus on Mining to be more specific.

In 2006 there were a series of mine disasters that, according to investigations were all a result of lack of inspection, lack of oversight and lack of safety enforcement. As a result, in West Virginia 12 miners were killed in January at the Sago Mine, five killed in Harlan at Darby1 and nine in Utah at Crandall Canyon. In that 18 month period 59 miners were killed due to failures to regulate safety

Kentucky coal mine blast kills five - General News - redOrbit

And this is the result:
Quote:
The man who will oversee the federal government's investigation into the disaster that has trapped six workers in a Utah coal mine for over a week was twice rejected for his current job by senators concerned about his own safety record when he managed mines in the private sector.

President George W. Bush resorted to a recess appointment in October 2006 to anoint Richard Stickler as the nation's mine safety czar after it became clear he could not receive enough support even in a GOP-controlled Senate.

In the wake of the January 2006 Sago mine disaster in West Virginia, senators from both sides of the aisle expressed concern that Stickler was not the right person to combat climbing death rates in the nation's mines.

Democrats, led by West Virginia Sens. Robert Byrd and Jay Rockefeller, and Massachusetts Sen. Ted Kennedy, questioned the safety record of the mines Stickler ran when he was a coal company executive.

Over the course of his career in the private sector, Stickler managed various mining operations for Bethlehem Steel subsidiary BethEnergy Mines, Inc.

The Charleston (W.Va.) Gazette reported in January 2006 that three workers died at BethEnergy mines managed by Stickler during the 1980s and 1990s.

Gazette reporter Ken Ward, Jr. wrote that in the worst of the incidents, one mechanic was killed, and eight other workers were injured when the portal bus that was carrying them to the mine-shaft bottom derailed. A report later said the portal bus had not been properly maintained.

Stickler began his career as a general laborer at BethEnergy, eventually rising to manage the company's operations in Pennsylvania and Boone County, West Virginia.

He worked briefly for Massey Energy subsidiary Performance Coal in 1996 and 1997 before becoming head of the Pennsylvania mine safety office. Stickler retired from the post in 2003.

In addition to concerns about the safety record at his mines, Stickler also faced opposition from senators, union leaders and relatives of those killed in mine accidents who felt an industry insider should not oversee safety inspectors.

United Mine Workers of America President Cecil Roberts said that miners "could not tolerate" another industry executive overseeing their health and safety.

"Too often these mining executives place priority on productivity, but fail to focus on miners' health and safety," Roberts told Mike Hall at the AFL-CIO's blog in June 2006.

The wife and daughter of a miner killed at Sago wrote a letter to lawmakers that same month urging them to reject Stickler's nomination.

"Mr. Stickler is a longtime coal executive and because of his connections with the coal industry, we are concerned that his primary objectives may be solely on compliance and production, not on miners' health and safety,'' Debbie Hamner and Sara Bailey wrote in a letter quoted by the Gazette.

Bush first nominated Stickler to head the Mine Safety and Health Administration in September 2005. He received renewed attention from lawmakers following the Sago disaster. By May 2006 it was clear that Byrd and other Senate opponents would not allow Stickler's nomination to pass, and Republicans withdrew a scheduled vote on his job.

In July 2006, Labor Secretary Elaine Chao hired Stickler as a consultant and adviser, but insisted through a spokeswoman that she was not attempting to circumvent the nomination process.

In August and September of the same year, the Senate twice voted to send the Stickler nomination back to the White House.

In October 2006, Bush used a recess appointment to install Stickler -- a decision that was quickly denounced by senators from both sides of the aisle.

Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter, a Republican, told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that he "didn't think Mr. Stickler was the right man for the job." Another Pennsylvania Republican, Rick Santorum, also told the paper he was "disappointed" the White House had not let senators debate and vote on the nomination.

In a written statement Wednesday, Byrd told The Huffington Post that MSHA's response to the Crandall Canyon incident will be a test of Stickler's "worthiness to be properly confirmed by the United States Senate."

Byrd also expressed concern about the slow pace of the implementation of new mining safety laws established in the wake of the Sago disaster.

"I told Mr. Stickler about my concerns earlier this summer," he said. "Until I see better progress from MSHA, I will retain my hold on Mr. Stickler's nomination."

McBear,
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post #35 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-20-2009, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
You SAY responsible spending yet supported McCain and the rest of the Republicans who voted for all the Deficit Spending. Apparently you want it both ways. And you SAY you want "responsible deregulation" yet never seem to come up with any hard examples other than the tried and true NeoCon songs. Again, you seem to want it both ways. You want to SAY that you are Libertarian and Conservative but you ACT like any normal NeoCon on most issues [you do spin off on some].

As for Labor/Food Safety and Financial Sector Regulations, I have posted more than enough on Financial Sector. Let's look at Labor for a moment. Let's focus on Mining to be more specific.

In 2006 there were a series of mine disasters that, according to investigations were all a result of lack of inspection, lack of oversight and lack of safety enforcement. As a result, in West Virginia 12 miners were killed in January at the Sago Mine, five killed in Harlan at Darby1 and nine in Utah at Crandall Canyon. In that 18 month period 59 miners were killed due to failures to regulate safety

Kentucky coal mine blast kills five - General News - redOrbit

And this is the result:
Again with Mischaracterization!

I supported McCain and my posts about him supporting the bailout are self explanatory. I remember many times making the analogy that we are on the train to ruin. The Republicans are the local and the Democrats are the express.

I made it very clear many times that I did not like McCain and would have rather had Paul or Romney. My how your memory fails you sometimes. Perhaps increased levels of aluminum in your cerebrum?

Anyway as for the mines issue...you are way off base. First, it is the responsibility of the Mining company to ensure the safety of the miners. Secondly, the state where the mine is located is tasked with the inspections. Then the Federal Government is charged with making the regulations.

For you to leap from the Sago mine disaster (and the others) to the fact that it is Bush's fault is so ridiculous it is laughable! That is like saying that my neighborhood pool does not have the required amount of Chlorine so it is Bush's fault that my kid got Giardia because he had the director of health and human services not inspect my neighborhood pool!

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #36 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-20-2009, 09:24 PM
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Anyway as for the mines issue...you are way off base. First, it is the responsibility of the Mining company to ensure the safety of the miners. Secondly, the state where the mine is located is tasked with the inspections. Then the Federal Government is charged with making the regulations.

For you to leap from the Sago mine disaster (and the others) to the fact that it is Bush's fault is so ridiculous it is laughable! That is like saying that my neighborhood pool does not have the required amount of Chlorine so it is Bush's fault that my kid got Giardia because he had the director of health and human services not inspect my neighborhood pool!
Sorry, but you apparently have no clue about Federal Mine Inspectors. There are also state inspectors however the FEDERAL inspectors are the ones that are fully funded, state...not so much.

I am guessing you have never been in or dealt with mines, nor do you have dozens of relatives who either work in, own or have been killed in mining accidents. I have. Figure out your subject before drawing assumptions and making such stupid and ludicrous statements that are so completely incorrect.

McBear,
Kentucky

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post #37 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-20-2009, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
Sorry, but you apparently have no clue about Federal Mine Inspectors. There are also state inspectors however the FEDERAL inspectors are the ones that are fully funded, state...not so much.

I am guessing you have never been in or dealt with mines, nor do you have dozens of relatives who either work in, own or have been killed in mining accidents. I have. Figure out your subject before drawing assumptions and making such stupid and ludicrous statements that are so completely incorrect.
You are probably right in regards to the fact that I do not have as much experience in the mines as you do.

However, I do know how to read. My limited experience with mines has been in PA. For example here is their site on Mine Safety.

Funny how they take all the authority for the inspection.

deepminesafety: Main Mine Inspection Page

And of Course Kentucky has a nice page as well where they say in part:

Quote:
Safety inspections are made by well-qualified and trained inspectors who are stationed in the six district offices and mine rescue stations throughout the commonwealth
Office of Mine Safety and Licensing

Sounds to me like they have people waiting to do inspections. Of course you would know better than I.

Now of course in Utah there is a good example of an investigation and reccommendations.

One of the recommendations for the Federal agency to actually reduce the regulations in regards to setting up Mine Safety Training Curricula.

Quote:
They also indicated that MSHA training requirements imposed unnecessary constraints on the development and implementation of optimal safety training curricula.
See the whole report here:

UMSC Report on Crandall Canyon

45 recommendations and they were all focused on the State doing better not blaming the Federal Agency.

Hmmm...that is odd. Why take the blame and responsibility for something that is not yours to take? Oh that's right! IT IS THE STATES' RESPONSIBILITY!!!

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #38 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-20-2009, 09:47 PM
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You are probably right in regards to the fact that I do not have as much experience in the mines as you do.

However, I do know how to read. My limited experience with mines has been in PA. For example here is their site on Mine Safety.

Funny how they take all the authority for the inspection.

deepminesafety: Main Mine Inspection Page

And of Course Kentucky has a nice page as well where they say in part:



Office of Mine Safety and Licensing

Sounds to me like they have people waiting to do inspections. Of course you would know better than I.

Now of course in Utah there is a good example of an investigation and reccommendations.

One of the recommendations for the Federal agency to actually reduce the regulations in regards to setting up Mine Safety Training Curricula.



See the whole report here:

UMSC Report on Crandall Canyon

45 recommendations and they were all focused on the State doing better not blaming the Federal Agency.

Hmmm...that is odd. Why take the blame and responsibility for something that is not yours to take? Oh that's right! IT IS THE STATES' RESPONSIBILITY!!!
That is all well and good. It doesn't, however actually look at the issue. If you understood Mining in America, you would know to look HERE:
MSHA - U.S. Department of Labor
Wonder why they say Protecting Miner's Safety and Health since 1978?

And you would know that, after Sago and Darby the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT enacted the following legislation:
Bush signs mine safety law

You need to get better at google. It only works when you know what to look for.

McBear,
Kentucky

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post #39 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-20-2009, 09:53 PM
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I bet this job is easy since apparently they just set around and don't actually do anything.
Mine Safety and Health Inspector Positions<br> On-Site Federal Employment Screening

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post #40 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-20-2009, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
That is all well and good. It doesn't, however actually look at the issue. If you understood Mining in America, you would know to look HERE:
MSHA - U.S. Department of Labor
Wonder why they say Protecting Miner's Safety and Health since 1978?

And you would know that, after Sago and Darby the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT enacted the following legislation:
Bush signs mine safety law

You need to get better at google. It only works when you know what to look for.
And it all falls squarely on the State's shoulders McBear. The Fed sets the basic regulations and the states then can make them more stringent or not.

The failure of the companies that own the mines is what you are failing to include! You of all people! What is the deal there?

You are saying that it is some bureaucrat in D.C.'s responsibility to make the mines in Utah, Kentucky, Penssylvania, safe! That is ridiculous on its face.

On top of that you claim that this is a result of lack of regulatory enforcement by the Bush administration and you support it with and Article illustrating the fact that Bush created more regulation!

How does that work?

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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