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post #121 of 163 (permalink) Old 04-17-2009, 12:22 AM
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The first economic crisis this country had was during Washington. We had one every 15-20 years afterward. Farms and businesses were lost constantly. Every 15-20 years. Zoom forward to the Great Depression. Things changed. We got The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933. We did not have a single economic upheaval for 50 years afterward. We also had the great economic growth during that period in our history. At a point in the 80s we decided that Regulations were troublesome and in the way. The Savings and Loan Debacle came soon afterward. Gramm/Leach/Bliley came in 1999 and gutted Glass-Steagall and just six short years later the stew that became the 2007 Recession and Financial Sector Crash was already boiling. Both Savings and Loan and the Financial Crash [and let's not forget Enron and MCI/WorldCom in the early 2000s] were primarily triggered by a lack of major regulations and a failure to enforce the ones on the books. That is not an opinion, that is fully documented and established.

So, this idea that deregulation is a wonderful thing is a false prophet. It leads folks along a path that is not supported by facts.

And to suggest that "the economies that have flourished throughout the centuries" were those with the least regulation is just not true on two major levels. First, regional and international regulations were often conducted by armies and navies rather than tort and regulatory boards. But MOST important, "throughout the Centuries" there were not 6.6Billion people. We no longer are able to get along on a handshake and word of honor.

Just this past January you posted a new thread asking International Law. Why should we care? and went on to suggest that we should only deal with treaties that serve OUR interest and not the interest of all the signing parties. So, on some level regulations need to be in place to protect business from folks who have ethics like THAT.

Back to the Jenga, I suggested that REGULATIONS were an applied bonding agent. You immediately drew assumptions and used an example of the EU as the most Regulated in the World [they are not]. Smart regulations allow things to work correctly, much like the ECU in your Mercedes is nothing but a collection of regulations that define parameters of each and every system and insure that they always work at their optimum. Government regulations, when done correctly serve the very same function.
Now we are just rehashing old ground here.

You try to illustrate the problem as the fault of deregulation and then show that more regulation doesn't help. So which is it?

The real problem is your inability to admit, for whatever reason I do not know, that there is bad regulation and their is good regulation.

Bad regulation is something like the Community Reinvestment Act which dictates what private companies must do and not do with regard to High Risk loans. When it is shown that this is really a very bad idea the correction made is not to do away with it, but to compound the problem by encouraging more of these loans by buying them up with government money.

Good regulations are those regulations that create a fair playing field. Regulations like the Insider trading laws are an example of this.

What the US Government has done is analagous to taking to soccer teams, and equipping one team with bats then telling them its ok to bean the other team because they have won a disproportionate amount of matches compared to them. And telling the other team it's ok because we are going to pay for your medical care.

How in the Bloody Hell is that sound fiscal policy?

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #122 of 163 (permalink) Old 04-17-2009, 01:08 AM
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Now we are just rehashing old ground here.

You try to illustrate the problem as the fault of deregulation and then show that more regulation doesn't help. So which is it?

The real problem is your inability to admit, for whatever reason I do not know, that there is bad regulation and their is good regulation.

Bad regulation is something like the Community Reinvestment Act which dictates what private companies must do and not do with regard to High Risk loans. When it is shown that this is really a very bad idea the correction made is not to do away with it, but to compound the problem by encouraging more of these loans by buying them up with government money.

Good regulations are those regulations that create a fair playing field. Regulations like the Insider trading laws are an example of this.

What the US Government has done is analagous to taking to soccer teams, and equipping one team with bats then telling them its ok to bean the other team because they have won a disproportionate amount of matches compared to them. And telling the other team it's ok because we are going to pay for your medical care.

How in the Bloody Hell is that sound fiscal policy?
First it is a very poor analogy.

I have always said that we need smart regulations. I would expect folks to be able to infer from that comment that there are good regulations and bad regulations and it requires thought to implement them correctly. To suggest that I "can't admit there are good and bad regulations" is disingenuous and fully not supported by fact. You are not very good at trying to put words in peoples mouth. I leave way too much written record that has been consistent for five years on this board.

As for this sentence: You try to illustrate the problem as the fault of deregulation and then show that more regulation doesn't help. So which is it? What the hell does it even mean. It makes zero sense. I have written no contradictions whatsoever on that post. Did you even read it?

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post #123 of 163 (permalink) Old 04-17-2009, 01:21 AM
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First it is a very poor analogy.

I have always said that we need smart regulations. I would expect folks to be able to infer from that comment that there are good regulations and bad regulations and it requires thought to implement them correctly. To suggest that I "can't admit there are good and bad regulations" is disingenuous and fully not supported by fact. You are not very good at trying to put words in peoples mouth. I leave way too much written record that has been consistent for five years on this board.

As for this sentence: You try to illustrate the problem as the fault of deregulation and then show that more regulation doesn't help. So which is it? What the hell does it even mean. It makes zero sense. I have written no contradictions whatsoever on that post. Did you even read it?
I have maintained all along that deregulation is fine so long as it is done intelligently. I have also maintained that we need regulation all along but that it also needs to be intelligent.

We just disagree with what that is.

My analogy is spot on. You say it isn't because it illustrates our current mess more aptly than anything you have bestowed upon us, and in doing so it shows the fallacy of your points that we need more regulation.

You have made the points repeatedly that Government intervention is needed in order to right the ship. Unfortunately you never clarify these regulatory needs and so we are left to try and figure out what you mean.

I have always pointed out that the regulation we need is that which is designed to level the playing field.

You have not agreed with that and in so doing we can only be led to believe that you wish to see more regulation that is designed to work much like a Golf Handicap in leveling the playing field by making it easier for some players to get a better "score" and for other "bigger" or "more experienced" players harder to get a better "score.'

Is this a correct characterization of the regulation you seek? If not then please clarify for us.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #124 of 163 (permalink) Old 04-19-2009, 07:03 PM
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Doesn't this remind anyone of Waco ?
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post #125 of 163 (permalink) Old 04-19-2009, 07:15 PM
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Doesn't this remind anyone of Waco ?
No not really. Just when McBare gets pinned to the wall on something he rather not reply to it.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #126 of 163 (permalink) Old 04-19-2009, 07:29 PM
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No, no, I mean, isn't RWE code for "crazy religious fundamentalists with guns" ?

Quote:
The Department of Homeland Security is warning law enforcement officials about a rise in "rightwing extremist activity," saying the economic recession, the election of America's first black president and the return of a few disgruntled war veterans could swell the ranks of white-power militias.
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post #127 of 163 (permalink) Old 04-19-2009, 07:31 PM
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No not really. Just when McBare gets pinned to the wall on something he rather not reply to it.
I've been gone the weekend. To what would you like a reply?

If it is regarding your question about regulation and your little soccer analogy you could not be any further off base. You make up an analysis to fit what YOU think I mean to fit YOUR view of what is wrong and try to pass that as my words. With a few exceptions, everyone on this board can read and comprehend. That game doesn't play here.

If it is another question, bring it.

McBear,
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post #128 of 163 (permalink) Old 04-19-2009, 07:33 PM
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I've been gone the weekend. To what would you like a reply?

If it is regarding your question about regulation and your little soccer analogy you could not be any further off base. You make up an analysis to fit what YOU think I mean to fit YOUR view of what is wrong and try to pass that as my words. With a few exceptions, everyone on this board can read and comprehend. That game doesn't play here.

If it is another question, bring it.
Post 123 Mr. Bare.

I hope you enjoyed the weekend. Out fomenting hate and discontent as a plant in the local John Birch Society meeting?

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #129 of 163 (permalink) Old 04-19-2009, 07:39 PM
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post #130 of 163 (permalink) Old 04-19-2009, 07:46 PM
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I have maintained all along that deregulation is fine so long as it is done intelligently. I have also maintained that we need regulation all along but that it also needs to be intelligent.

We just disagree with what that is.

My analogy is spot on. You say it isn't because it illustrates our current mess more aptly than anything you have bestowed upon us, and in doing so it shows the fallacy of your points that we need more regulation.

You have made the points repeatedly that Government intervention is needed in order to right the ship. Unfortunately you never clarify these regulatory needs and so we are left to try and figure out what you mean.

I have always pointed out that the regulation we need is that which is designed to level the playing field.

You have not agreed with that and in so doing we can only be led to believe that you wish to see more regulation that is designed to work much like a Golf Handicap in leveling the playing field by making it easier for some players to get a better "score" and for other "bigger" or "more experienced" players harder to get a better "score.'

Is this a correct characterization of the regulation you seek? If not then please clarify for us.
You could not be further from reality on this. As for "Unfortunately you never clarify these regulatory needs and so we are left to try and figure out what you mean.". You really must be clueless. I think you will find that most folks have read my clarifications on that subject so many times that they are sick of it. They might not like my opinion but they certainly have heard it. [I have written "Gramm/Leach/Bliley" or it's dirivities over 250 times on this board since 2006, in nearly every occasion in regard to its diminishment of regulatory powers to the financial sector.

Go back and read and understand three separate acts. 1) Glass-Steagall, 2) Gramm-Leach-Bliley and 3) Sarbanes-Oxley. Understand what their strengths and weaknesses were/are.

What you will find from all three is that NONE address leveling the playing field, none addresses special interests and none addresses anything more than throttle controls and safety valves that decide whether nor not to allow an event like 2006-2009 to occur in the Financial Sector.

So, to clarify, NO, you do not have the correct characterization at all. My position on regulations within the Financial Sector have not changed since I first posted on them in 2006. The only change is in the emphasis that the failure to enforce the regulations on the books and its contribution to the failures that we have been experiencing.

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