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post #61 of 96 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 08:54 AM
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Well, it has certainly been chugging right along for the past 75 years or so without missing a beat. It's future is not nearly as good, thanks to the tinkering of the past few administrations but the point was that it was an excellent system for a lot of years for a lot of people. It provided confidence and a safety net to folks when it was needed.

Its future, that is not so good, but that has nothing to do with its design or intent. It was designed to cost the government nothing. And without meddling of Reagan, that would be the case today. But because it is going to cost in the future, folks seem to forget that it is the drawer's money that they are receiving, not the taxpayer's.
SS and Medicare are joined at the hip, and you know as well as I that its forthcoming failure has everything to do with demographics, and relatively little to do with a political party that you swipe at every opportunity. A system such as this (essentially a Ponzi scheme intended to steal from your own children) that defaults within a couple of generations can be safely and unequivocally labeled a dismal failure in my book. Did it benefit a couple of past generations, who successfully stole from their children? Absolutely. If that is your definition of success, you've hit pay dirt.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #62 of 96 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 08:55 AM Thread Starter
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So again, TNT, are you a member of the Gingrich or the Palin faction? My,my, watch the splinters:


Gingrich: Palin won't be future GOP leader
By Alexander Bolton


Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) is batting down the hype that Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin heads into 2012 as the frontrunner for the GOP presidential nomination.

Palin energized the Republican base after GOP presidential nominee Sen. John McCain (Ariz.) tapped her as his running mate and she has tried to preserve her high public profile since Election Day.

But Gingrich, an architect of the Republican revolution of 1994, took Palin down a notch, asserting that she would not become the party’s leader, as some have predicted.

“I think that she is going to be a significant player,” said Gingrich during an interview on CBS’s “Face the Nation”. “But she’s going to be one of 20 or 30 significant players. She’s not going to be the de facto leader.”

Since the defeat of the GOP ticket, Palin has pursued an aggressive media strategy, scheduling a full slate of interviews to keep her face on television.

CNN aired a lengthy, wide-ranging interview between Wolf Blitzer and Palin on Sunday. Palin has also sat down for interviews with CNN’s Larry King, Fox New’s Greta Van Susteren, and invited Matt Lauer of the “Today Show” to Wasilla for dinner.

Palin refused to rule out a presidential bid in 2012 during her interview with Blitzer, which aired on CNN’s “Late Edition.”

Some political analysts, citing her high name identification and loyal following among the base, say that Palin will be a frontrunner for the GOP nomination in 2012.

Palin dominated media coverage at the Republican Governors Association meeting in Miami last week. She grabbed the spotlight at a Thursday press conference, answering reporters’ questions while a dozen other GOP governors stood awkwardly behind her on stage.

Crowds of reporters and cameras chased Palin in Miami while ignoring more experienced colleagues from other states.

But Gingrich on Sunday sought to divert some media attention away from Palin and to other governors such as Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal (R) and Utah Gov. John Huntsman (R).

“She’s going to be a much bigger story in the short run,” said Gingrich, explaining Palin’s higher media profile compared to other GOP governors. “But, I think, as she goes back to being governor and as she works in Alaska, you’re going to see a group of governors emerge, not just Sarah Palin.”

Gingrich said Huntsman and Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels (R) may emerge as political leaders on the economy while Jindal could claim the mantel on healthcare reform.

“I would say, for example, to Republicans who are about to face this question of how do you get the economy growing again, bring in Gov. Daniels and bring in Gov. Huntsman….”

“If you want to understand healthcare, you can do a lot worse than to bring in Bobby Jindal who may well know more about health policy than any other elected official in America and is doing an extraordinary job in Louisiana.”

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

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post #63 of 96 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 08:57 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
SS and Medicare are joined at the hip, and you know as well as I that its forthcoming failure has everything to do with demographics, and relatively little to do with a political party that you swipe at every opportunity. A system such as this (essentially a Ponzi scheme intended to steal from your own children) that defaults within a couple of generations can be safely and unequivocally labeled a dismal failure. Did it benefit past generations that successfully stole from their children? Absolutely. If that is your definition of success, you've hit pay dirt.
The system is considered solvent to 2040, after that it is pretty obvious it will have to be means tested, but don't worry, until then we have our wage slaves contributing billions that they will never see.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #64 of 96 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:42 PM
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The system is considered solvent to 2040, after that it is pretty obvious it will have to be means tested, but don't worry, until then we have our wage slaves contributing billions that they will never see.
Part of the problem is that for over a quarter of a century, the subjects of Social Security and Medicare have been placed there with the weather and world hunger: lots of talk but no action. Politically too darn hot. But the water is too soon raising and without locks we will drown. Meanwhile, the needy stays SOL.
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post #65 of 96 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 01:56 PM
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And this is where you are wrong. Please see in post 30 where I say:



And then in post 32 I further clarify:



Now let's just look at why you are so hung up on having me define a large general group of people by a small cross section when we are talking about a large general group.

Can we also look at why you have completely obfuscated and glossed over my posting of at least one of the alternatives being proposed in post 16?

Further, I am not trying to answer your question posed in post #4 I am responding to the impromptu meeting of the Society of Mutual Masturbaters by pointing out that the RNC, as the Conservative Movement is viewed in a Corporate Being, has a long history of rising from a defeat. This is accomplished by its long standing Hegemony in fundraising, which was only recently challenged by Barack Obama's fundraising prowess.

So in short, you are trying to foist upon me a question which has no bearing on the points that I am making. My answers to your question are not in your view, acceptable. Fair enough. Your question is not Germane to what I am trying to illustrate.

I am sorry for your misunderstanding. You obviously have limits upon what you can process. It's ok. We all do. I can't process what Pi is past the 20th number.
You still can't read and assimilate information that is not laid out exactly as you expect it to be. I wasn't asking in relation to your comments of the GOP Brand, I was asking in relation to the various splinters of that Brand, to glean an understanding of your mindset since you always clump them together as a collective. Your comments regarding their fundraising or their corporate branding is not relevant to what I was asking.

I fully understood what you were positing, I was asking a tangential, yet germane to the conversation question since YOU brought up"the Conservative Movement" [not the corporate branding]. Apparently deviation during a debate is a problem for you. I think that puts you under the "Stay the Course" NeoConservative.

But I think we all figured that.

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post #66 of 96 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
SS and Medicare are joined at the hip, and you know as well as I that its forthcoming failure has everything to do with demographics, and relatively little to do with a political party that you swipe at every opportunity. A system such as this (essentially a Ponzi scheme intended to steal from your own children) that defaults within a couple of generations can be safely and unequivocally labeled a dismal failure in my book. Did it benefit a couple of past generations, who successfully stole from their children? Absolutely. If that is your definition of success, you've hit pay dirt.
I don't see how it steals from future generations if it is contributed to by both the wage earner and the employer. If a tax payer as paid 40 years into the system, I find it hard to believe they consider their $12K a year past 65 for an average 13 years to be a theft to future generations.

Now, the tie to medicare is there but not direct. FICA handles both but the withdrawal from the paycheck is separate for SS and MC.

On the down side, with unemployment up and boomers hitting the roles quicker than expected, I expect both systems to be tested sooner rather than later. When the funds were merged with the general fund in the 1980s, that was the injection of the fiscal poison into that system. It it a long term poison that is going to bear fruit in another 25-30 years. I hope folks are ready.

McBear,
Kentucky

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post #67 of 96 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 02:28 PM
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Simple. If I don't get every penny I've paid in plus interest, I've been stolen from. And/or if my child doesn't get every penny she will have paid in plus interest, she has been stolen from.

Direct/indirect -- I could care less. Your average American sees SS and Medicare as a slice of the same pie they're entitled to once they reach the same retirement age of their parents.

And we can argue SS from now 'til doomsday, but we both know Medicare is standing on the precipice with no way out.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #68 of 96 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
Simple. If I don't get every penny I've paid in plus interest, I've been stolen from. And/or if my child doesn't get every penny she will have paid in plus interest, she has been stolen from.

Direct/indirect -- I could care less. Your average American sees SS and Medicare as a slice of the same pie they're entitled to once they reach the same retirement age of their parents.

And we can argue SS from now 'til doomsday, but we both know Medicare is standing on the precipice with no way out.
Are you also saying you're entitled to the money your employer paid in on your behalf then, or is your claim limited to what's actually been deducted from your paycheck? Just looking for a clarification.
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post #69 of 96 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 02:52 PM
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I am entitled to what I paid in. My employer (erm, that would be me, though it wasn't always) is entitled to what he paid in.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #70 of 96 (permalink) Old 04-01-2009, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
Simple. If I don't get every penny I've paid in plus interest, I've been stolen from. And/or if my child doesn't get every penny she will have paid in plus interest, she has been stolen from.

Direct/indirect -- I could care less. Your average American sees SS and Medicare as a slice of the same pie they're entitled to once they reach the same retirement age of their parents.

And we can argue SS from now 'til doomsday, but we both know Medicare is standing on the precipice with no way out.
I don't argue that Medicare is right on the edge and that if we don't rebuild the system, it will fail and make AIG and the financial sector seem like childs play.

Regarding Social Security, my dad explained it to me this way when I asked the same questions a long time ago.

The system was built to provide a sense of security at a time it did not exist. Sometime you do things that are best for your sense of security and sometimes you do things that are best for the common sense of security. Social Security is one of those things you do for your country's sense of security. When it works, everyone benefits.

I wrote that down in 1972 in a steno pad. When he died in 2001 I took a stack of those pads and typed them all into a document.

I realized then that his experiences in the coalfields of Eastern Kentucky and the beaches of Normandy, and the thoughts that derived from them were the best inheritance I could receive.

McBear,
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