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post #21 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-24-2009, 11:04 AM
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And this is what the problem.

Principles do not lead to rigidity. That statement on its face is ridiculous. Beliefs are what lead to rigidity. Principle is an idea. A principle is something like Personal Freedom.

Please show us how a principle such as Personal Freedom leads to rigidity, exclusivity, etc...
In the case of the American right wing, principles lead to hypocrisy and contradiction. Case in point: Gay marriage. It harms no one. Those involved in it are pursuing happiness in life. Yet the right tries to claim it sees the Right to Pursuit of Happiness as a "principle". It is not a principle, it is for them a situational ethic. The list of contradictions like these on the right is endless.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-24-2009, 11:45 AM
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1. America is good.
Under the leadership the GOP and at the urging of Beck, we murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqis for a **** WMD lie. How was that "good"? America is good when it has good leadership, like any other country


2. I believe in God and He is the Center of my Life.
That's nice. Now keep your ***** magical beings out of my government, because not all of us give a rat's *** about your "god", especially the American version of Nazism, Beck's Mormon God.

3. I must always try to be a more honest person than I was yesterday.
People who cannot face up to the reality of the last eight years being honest? What a joke.

4. The family is sacred. My spouse and I are the ultimate authority, not the government.
Tell it to the judge

5. If you break the law you pay the penalty. Justice is blind and no one is above it.
Except, according to that ***** hypocrite Beck, George Bush and Rush Limbaugh, war criminal and dope head supreme, neither has to answer to the law according to hypocrite extraordinaire, Beck.

6. I have a right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, but there is no guarantee of equal results.
Except for homosexuals, they don't have the right to pursue happiness or enjoy the same liberties Beck gets to enjoy.

7. I work hard for what I have and I will share it with who I want to. Government cannot force me to be charitable.
My greed comes first

8. It is not un-American for me to disagree with authority or to share my personal opinion. Unless it disagrees with Beck, then it is un-American, as he routinely shouts from his radio program, for example this week, where he calls Obama "an evil genius" and "a communist". The **** hypocrite railed against those who objected to the Iraq War as "traitors".

9. The government works for me. I do not answer to them, they answer to me. Unless it is George Bush wanting to institute survelliance or revoke Habeus Corpus, then I, Beck, will bow to them like slaves
Hey, thanks for that. The other day I was talking with a friend and used the term "scary-anger". It wasn't familiar to them so I tried to explain: near-blinding rage, emotional, lacking in rationality, vituperative, reactive, suggestive of insanity, often profanity-laced, tantrum-like, almost ready to run up the clock tower with a deer rifle, etc.

I'm still not quite sure they understood, now I can simply point them to your post, that explains "scary-anger" quite nicely.
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post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-24-2009, 12:40 PM
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Bear you bring up some very interesting points (As in your list, not your opinion on Beck). None of which I disagree with. However I do want to know how how you define what is right?
I don't think you "define" right. I think you just know right or you don't. You either know how to treat people right or not. It is all based on cumulative experience.

I was very lucky in that I had a father who was a union rep for the Butcher's Workman's Union, first local then state then regional. While they had a very specific rule book, he always went by the philosophy of doing what was RIGHT. Sometimes that pissed off management, sometimes it pissed off the union member. But in 40 years they never had a work stoppage or problem. Everyone was treated "like they would want to be treated".

When someone was sick and not able to work you took them food or paid their rent, when someone's car broke down you called someone at the garage and made sure that it got fixed.

If the cops pulled over somebody for expired license and no insurance and other things, if they couldn't afford it, or if it took food from the table it was simple gone and insurance was paid by somebody.

Maybe everybody had a bit less in the long run but nobody had nothing. That is how I grew up. Right is the easiest thing in the world to know. It comes naturally.

The one trick that I find that trips many people up is when they start to help someone and the first thing they think about is "when they will get paid back" or "will the person do what they are 'suppose' to do with the money/item". If you are still having those thoughts you are only halfway there.

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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-24-2009, 12:51 PM
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The one trick that I find that trips many people up is when they start to help someone and the first thing they think about is "when they will get paid back" or "will the person do what they are 'suppose' to do with the money/item". If you are still having those thoughts you are only halfway there.
Doing the right thing. It's called being a Man.
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post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-24-2009, 12:56 PM
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No, its called HUMAN.......
post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-24-2009, 12:57 PM
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Doing the right thing. It's called being a Man.
But not everyone figures that lesson out.

Killing in the name of freedom or WMD or democracy, as an example can "seem" right and be rationalized by many but it is not right.

Torture, no matter what the reason or what the excuse or what the rationalization or even the "ticking time bomb" is never right, though the Jack Bauer defense would suggest it is [or can be].

Right is not always so easy.

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post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-24-2009, 01:00 PM
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Hey, thanks for that. The other day I was talking with a friend and used the term "scary-anger". It wasn't familiar to them so I tried to explain: near-blinding rage, emotional, lacking in rationality, vituperative, reactive, suggestive of insanity, often profanity-laced, tantrum-like, almost ready to run up the clock tower with a deer rifle, etc.

I'm still not quite sure they understood, now I can simply point them to your post, that explains "scary-anger" quite nicely.
it would be a lot easier for you to use a mirror.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-24-2009, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
I don't think you "define" right. I think you just know right or you don't. You either know how to treat people right or not. It is all based on cumulative experience.

I was very lucky in that I had a father who was a union rep for the Butcher's Workman's Union, first local then state then regional. While they had a very specific rule book, he always went by the philosophy of doing what was RIGHT. Sometimes that pissed off management, sometimes it pissed off the union member. But in 40 years they never had a work stoppage or problem. Everyone was treated "like they would want to be treated".

When someone was sick and not able to work you took them food or paid their rent, when someone's car broke down you called someone at the garage and made sure that it got fixed.

If the cops pulled over somebody for expired license and no insurance and other things, if they couldn't afford it, or if it took food from the table it was simple gone and insurance was paid by somebody.

Maybe everybody had a bit less in the long run but nobody had nothing. That is how I grew up. Right is the easiest thing in the world to know. It comes naturally.

The one trick that I find that trips many people up is when they start to help someone and the first thing they think about is "when they will get paid back" or "will the person do what they are 'suppose' to do with the money/item". If you are still having those thoughts you are only halfway there.
I agree with you that Right is just a known thing to most people and I agree with your illustrations. Interesting to note though that all your illustrations take place at the individual relationship level or what is politically called the local level.

How do you square what you espouse here with that in mind. Things such as more federal government spending and control as opposed to local. More money to Government on the federal level as opposed to the local, etc.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-24-2009, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
But not everyone figures that lesson out.

Killing in the name of freedom or WMD or democracy, as an example can "seem" right and be rationalized by many but it is not right.

Torture, no matter what the reason or what the excuse or what the rationalization or even the "ticking time bomb" is never right, though the Jack Bauer defense would suggest it is [or can be].

Right is not always so easy.
I disagree with you McBear. If you have the person in the room with you who knows where the next 5 IED's are going to be planted and you know that this information is only good for 24 hours how do you get it? Are you willing to say that one person's life is now more valuable than another's?

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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