GM, Chrysler demand another $40 Billion - Page 13 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #121 of 132 (permalink) Old 02-21-2009, 12:45 PM
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Gettelfinger, Nardelli, and Waggoner *must* be shown the business end of the curb. NOW.


And "NO" bonuses, or money of any kind in any form given them. If they stay, NOTHING wil change to any meaningful extent.
CORRECT.

How it is possible that the heads of the auto companies, and please at Lutz to that list, along with the heads of our major banks are still employed is beyond me.

In an honorable society there would have been a mass Seppuku. But then again they took their cues from Bushie.

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post #122 of 132 (permalink) Old 02-21-2009, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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CORRECT.

How it is possible that the heads of the auto companies, and please at Lutz to that list, along with the heads of our major banks are still employed is beyond me.
The part that's beyond me is that everyone remains up in arms about the auto companies, but not so much about Wall Street, which has actually stolen half of everyone's wealth.

The auto companies are small potatoes, in comparison.
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post #123 of 132 (permalink) Old 02-21-2009, 05:38 PM
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The part that's beyond me is that everyone remains up in arms about the auto companies, but not so much about Wall Street, which has actually stolen half of everyone's wealth.

The auto companies are small potatoes, in comparison.
$1Trillion:$25Billion. Yep.

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post #124 of 132 (permalink) Old 02-22-2009, 05:50 PM
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The question of who is to blame gets the same answer as who can fix the problem. Convenience is another factor in the value equation. If any two things are both Good Enough, then the decision to buy comes down to Price and Availability versus Urgency of Need.

Therefore, people buy more crap than they truly need because there's high availability of want items at a price that is easy to justify.

Let me put it this way - as big as Wal-Mart is, there's an equally big market that they're not interested in pursuing or simply haven't seen. A true Blue Ocean. If someone filled it, and scaled as effectively as Wal-Mart did, they could change the entire American economy for the better. They could make more money, with less volume, less overhead, and with better products, by simply refusing to carry things that didn't meet a higher definition of "good enough". Beat the drum regarding off shoring and market it relentlessly, and you can change the way people think.
I followed your dialogue with McBear and read also Jim Smith's input. What you propose is a titan's job. To get to reap the rewards I am convinced that rather than open government intervention, the chinese approach to protectionism may be warranted. Namely, a quid pro quo, where the quo to be received is notably larger than the quid offered. The U.S. is the most coveted market on earth, add to it NAFTA and you have a strength to bargain almost anything desired. Naturally, moral considerations will come into play since it all would be predicated as do onto others... China wants in, let them open their doors. Brasil wants in, let them open their doors. War like tactics but all with a smile and the kindest of manners.
Brought to the personal level you were focusing the discussion, perhaps you have to start by getting the local authorities and Commerce Chamber trip the merchants of junk, at least to get a reaction to build your long term strategy.
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post #125 of 132 (permalink) Old 02-22-2009, 06:33 PM
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The part that's beyond me is that everyone remains up in arms about the auto companies, but not so much about Wall Street, which has actually stolen half of everyone's wealth.

The auto companies are small potatoes, in comparison.
I grew up hearing that the way General Motors go, America goes. When Smith chose Wagoneer I saw the end of the slogan. A European manager focus business in a different light to the point that an experienced American schooled CEO can wrap him on his little finger. Why? Because we are a consumer society of great magnitude, as long as we can get a credit permitting us to keep up with the Jones'. Industrial American grew up, in many ways thanks to talent and ingenuity, in many ways complemented with successful brainwashing by Madison Avenue. This permitted, no made indispensible the growth of the banking and the securities and investments industries. The down side were the ways to make easy money, often by not so honest means. And so, things degraded from the fixed price of the Fair Trade Act to whatever conniving scheme a person's mind or scruples can conceive. And so, human nature took over and blemished all the places which should be sanctuaries of honesty: businesses, industries, banking, trading organizations, labor unions, government... you name it.

Yes, it is time to do away with Wagoneer, Nardine (Chrysler also needs an American focus), Lewis at Bank of America, what's their names at the SEC, Citibank, Meyer Lynch, BB&T, etc. But when a cancer is operated, radiation follows. If we replace them by true entrepreneurs maybe we will not need the trillions now forecasted, and in the process we might recover some of the loot taken by the bad apples. But will, nevertheless be a storm we must weather.
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post #126 of 132 (permalink) Old 02-23-2009, 06:37 AM
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My objection lies with the decision making process of a company that makes its money by selling something, goods and services or manufactured items, to the citizens of the United States of America believing the decision to offshore is solely up to them. mcbear noted in one of his paragraphs above that the consequence of offshoring jobs has a downside. At one point maybe we didn't all realize the downside, but we sure as hell do now.

The remedy is to impose restrictions based on the overall unemployment rate, the unemployment rate in that particular industry, regionally and nationally, on that decision making process. Much like the EPA regulations to preserve the environment, we need regulations to preserve the strength of the American economy before it rots away in front of our eyes.

The penalties should be imposed when American know-how is exported and the subsequent products are attempted to be imported. This would apply if the product or service was either the result of an American factory being shut down and a replacement factory being constructed to produce the same or similar (later model, for example, that contain all the newly developed innovations that were also now never built in this country) products, or products that have been spawned by a similar set of circumstances and are now being built by "indigenous" offshore companies.

Let's face it QBN, Americans buy more cheap, unreliable and useless junk than anyone could ever sustain a rational argument that they need. If prices were to raise to a level where an American could be paid to make or fabricate the item and make a respectable living, and we had to do with a few less of these items purchased as a whim merely because they are so cheap the quality of life would not be seriously impacted. Maybe malls would become stores again, instead of places half the population goes to for social interactions.

Jim
Bravo, Jim - this is my point exactly.
And in regards to the big three, everyone in upper management needs to be shown the door. Pick and choose a streamlined chain of command, submit new business plan, restructure and go. No more bailout money. Period.
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post #127 of 132 (permalink) Old 02-23-2009, 08:14 PM
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post #128 of 132 (permalink) Old 02-23-2009, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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A pretty smart article, or at least it was until I got to this part:
Perhaps the best analogy, and one that Washington will understand, is Social Security. Everybody in Congress and the White House has known for years that it's a ticking time bomb, thanks to actuarial trends and inadequate funding. But when President George W. Bush tried to reform the system early in his second term, he was handed a crippling defeat.
Bush & the Republicans would have had every old lady in America put her Social Security money in the stock market. Great plan.

Meanwhile, what they did do was institute a prescription-drug coverage provision--a colossal giveaway to pharmaceutical companies--at a cost of about $1.5 Trillion and counting. Expanding "coverage" while cuting taxes. Great plan.

Every old person I've discussed this with has responded: "But drugs are really expensive!" Somehow, having taxpayers foot the bill will make them cheaper. It's that Peter & Paul thing in your sig.
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post #129 of 132 (permalink) Old 04-23-2009, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
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Okay now, the weird thing is that Treasury is negotiating today with Chrysler debt holders.
April 23 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Treasury asked Chrysler LLC’s secured lenders to reduce their debt to $1.5 billion from $6.9 billion in exchange for a 5 percent equity stake in the automaker, a person familiar with the negotiations said.

"The offer followed by a day a proposal by the lenders to reduce the debt to about $4.5 billion and take 40 percent equity. The person describing the Treasury offer asked not to be identified discussing the private talks."
Obviously, they're far apart. Some say the 'secured lenders' should take their chances in bankruptcy court!

What's not so obvious is that these 'secured lenders' are ...
"The lender group is composed of New York-based JPMorgan Chase & Co., Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Citigroup Inc., Morgan Stanley and the investment funds."
So, to some extent, both sides in this negotiation are the U.S. Taxpayer. That's weird. And as usual, the last man standing is named Goldman Sachs.
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post #130 of 132 (permalink) Old 04-23-2009, 08:48 PM
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Must be the domino thingy . . .



Pretty neat, negotiating with ourselves. Hope we get a good deal.

Unfortunately, it's these rich guys negotiating with my unborn great grandchildren. I bet they get screwed.

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