Obama to decide 'shortly' on more troops for Afghan war - Page 5 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #41 of 68 (permalink) Old 02-16-2009, 10:00 PM
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Anyone who believes we can root out AQ without laying waste to the country is seriously misguided IMO ...

or
suffering from severe Bush Hate Recovery Syndrome.
Let's put it in perspective. We had 150,000 of the best trained and best equipped troops on the planet in Iraq for five years and the best we had, until the Surge was a draw. And that was after Shock and Awe, full Military occupation and complete control of the battlefield.

In Afghanistan we went from a stable situation to one where we started losing ground, again with the best trained and best equipped troops in the world.

And ALL were under the command of a Commander in Chief who did not have "group hug mentality". Where did it get us? AQ is still a worldwide organization and is still viable. We have no proof they are weaker than previously. We only know that whoever is Number 2 always dies.

The point is laying waste to a country to attack an enemy that has no country is not a battle plan. We know, as an example that there have been in recent past AQ cells in England. Should we lay waste to England next? What about France, Detroit, Buffalo, Indonesia? What country do you want to lay waste to?

The only reason to ramp up Afghanistan is to be closer to the perceived nexus of AQ. IF they don't mobilize and head somewhere else that might work. It will not stop the organization but it can slow it down. But Afghanistan is not the enemy. A very small, persistent group of terrorist fundamentalists are the enemy. And they can be anywhere and everywhere.

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post #42 of 68 (permalink) Old 02-16-2009, 10:04 PM
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Probably. I'm having a bad night. I'll go to the range tomorrow and get some rage out. Amazing how punching holes in paper can accomplish that.
I find the Combat Commander with 220wc works best. I have been using that one since 1971 when it was issued to me.

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post #43 of 68 (permalink) Old 02-16-2009, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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...

The point is laying waste to a country to attack an enemy that has no country is not a battle plan. We know, as an example that there have been in recent past AQ cells in England. Should we lay waste to England next? What about France, Detroit, Buffalo, Indonesia? What country do you want to lay waste to?

The only reason to ramp up Afghanistan is to be closer to the perceived nexus of AQ. IF they don't mobilize and head somewhere else that might work. It will not stop the organization but it can slow it down. But Afghanistan is not the enemy. A very small, persistent group of terrorist fundamentalists are the enemy. And they can be anywhere and everywhere.
I am not suggesting massive rolling armies across the Afghan landscape. Of course, that would be ineffective. However, sending massive number of ground troops in a cave to cave battle across a wide area is in fact a tactic which amounts to laying waste to the landscape.
The scale of such an operation has to be large if there is to be any chance of rooting out AQ from their hiding places.
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post #44 of 68 (permalink) Old 02-16-2009, 10:55 PM
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I am not suggesting massive rolling armies across the Afghan landscape. Of course, that would be ineffective. However, sending massive number of ground troops in a cave to cave battle across a wide area is in fact a tactic which amounts to laying waste to the landscape.
The scale of such an operation has to be large if there is to be any chance of rooting out AQ from their hiding places.
Considering how few of our troops are actually in Afghanistan, 30,000 is not that big a number. There won't be "massive" anythings. You just can't do mountain warfare that way. Much would be in support and intel and air support. If they do Tora Bora correctly they will own sections of it and key off that and grid the rest with drones and sensors. We have good technology. Unfortunately, for six years we had the wrong focus.

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post #45 of 68 (permalink) Old 02-16-2009, 11:05 PM Thread Starter
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Considering how few of our troops are actually in Afghanistan, 30,000 is not that big a number. There won't be "massive" anythings. You just can't do mountain warfare that way. Much would be in support and intel and air support. If they do Tora Bora correctly they will own sections of it and key off that and grid the rest with drones and sensors. We have good technology. Unfortunately, for six years we had the wrong focus.
They can clear sections of it at a time but owning any swath of territory and preventing re infiltration is an expensive proposition.
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post #46 of 68 (permalink) Old 02-16-2009, 11:15 PM
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They can clear sections of it at a time but owning any swath of territory and preventing re infiltration is an expensive proposition.
Taking someone else's land always is.

The smarter alternative is to fight terrorism as an advanced police action, much like the rest of the world does, instead of a military action. I have always thought [and was taught] that is the much better, smarter alternative. You don't use a shotgun to kill mosquitoes.

If you took much of the Pentagon/DHS budget that is used for Iraq/Afghanistan and refocused it to CIA/NSA/FBI in cooperation with world intel agencies the bang for the buck would be much better. You then use the military for TACTICAL OPS, not Daily Operations.

As an example, if we send 30K troops to the Afghan/Paki border any AQ that is there will hunker down and be on the defensive on THEIR TURF. If we pull out and they have to be on the move to do anything, they are no longer in their comfort zone. Tracking becomes easier as they now have to use public transportation through hubs.

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post #47 of 68 (permalink) Old 02-17-2009, 05:54 AM
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post #48 of 68 (permalink) Old 02-17-2009, 07:39 AM
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You just need to kill enough to marginalize the rest into submission. Just as a true child molester cannot be reformed, you need a strategy of containment and control. Like roaches they will continue to craw out from under the fridge. The best we can do is to whittle them down to a manageable number that we can keep an eye on. I don't care if they want to remain as terrorists, just so they do not associate with the rest of the world.
So then, why didn't your glorious leaders fucking do it, then?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

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post #49 of 68 (permalink) Old 02-17-2009, 07:50 AM
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post #50 of 68 (permalink) Old 02-17-2009, 07:52 AM
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I find the Combat Commander with 220wc works best. I have been using that one since 1971 when it was issued to me.
I perfer my Browning Hi-power.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

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