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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-08-2009, 04:18 PM
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10% is scary enough for me, especially if the one who has access to the button thinks it will help get the Mahdi out sooner.
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-08-2009, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Tahloube View Post
10% is scary enough for me, especially if the one who has access to the button thinks it will help get the Mahdi out sooner.
That's exactly it, that Mahdi thingy is central to many psyche over there to be discounted.
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-08-2009, 05:21 PM
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Hell NO, they are not weapons of peace, specially in that region. I have a strong feeling that if Iran had them, they will use them. In addition, should Pakistan's government collapse and some Islamic fundamentalists take over, they too will use them.
In all of my travels to those regions I can say, and without a doubt, that the maturity level among the people in that region is almost zero. The hot tempers, the total lack or respect of women and the almost bipolar mood swings some of those people have over there is simply too scary to have any of them near a nuclear weapon launch control panel.
I am sorry, but as much as I side with some of the Arab causes such as liberty for the Palestinians I must admit that the majority of the Arabs and Muslims need a few hundred years before they are ready to handle dangerous stuff.
Let me play the Devil's advocate. So lets say that they do get them and even end up using them. So what? We used them. What happened to us? The world has forgotten it. How does it help or hurt our society today? OK, we stopped an evil empire, or so we say. The world is a better place. Thousands may have been saved, etc. What if Iran uses it? Can and will it not claim the same? Again, 50 years later the whole world will have forgotten about it. Frankly, I believe that every country should have one. I think the empire-building would stop and dumbass countries like ours would not be influenced by shrewd countries like Israel in doing its dirty work.
I do not condone killing, murder, nor war. Although I dislike the government of Israel and its policies along with AIPAC, I would still want them to be safe. However, as an American, I can't help but wonder how much better America and her people would be if there were no Israel or if we had absolutely no ties with it, didn't give it so many of our resources at the expense of the well being of Americans.
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-08-2009, 07:27 PM
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Cancer Researcher,

To be honest, it's difficult to even know where to start addressing your response, but let me try.

1. “So lets say that they do get them and even end up using them. So what? We used them. What happened to us? “ - To answer this statement/question, you need to understand our reasoning for using those nukes. We had been at war for almost 4 years, during that time, we lost over 400,000 soldiers, airman, Marines, Coast Guardsmen, and sailors, and with the upcoming invasion of the islands of Japan, very large number of American lives could have been lost. At least that was the assumption that caused President Harry Truman to sign an executive order, ordering the use of two atomic bombs. Both bombs caused terrible damage, both to the population and psyche of the Japanese peoples, but did result in the Japanese surrender, and the end of World War II. We then undertook the total governance and reconstruction of Japan, and it could be argued that it’s because of our benevolence, that they are the powerhouse country they are today.

So how is that different, you ask, if Iran were to use nukes? Well, back in 1945, we were the only nation on earth that had those weapons, today, we’re not, and to make matters worse, nukes are in the hands of some rather unstable governments, such as Pakistan, Israel, China, North Korea, and Russia. If Iran were to get “the bomb”, just that fact alone would probably be enough to start another regional war. I believe that Israel would not allow Iran to have that weapon, based, if nothing else, on Iran’s stated goal of destroying Israel. War’s, like hurricanes, have a way of growing larger by feeding on themselves. Do you really believe that if Iran were to use a nuke, in a first strike scenario, that that would be the end of it? It wouldn’t you know. Israel would have to launch too, and once the nuclear genie is out of the bottle, it might prove impossible to get the little fucker back in.

2. As for “the world forgetting” (about our use of nukes), don’t be ridiculous. No one has forgotten, except perhaps those who have never seen or know anything about the devastation caused by nuclear weapons. After the Shaw of Iran was deposed in the late 1970’s, the country fell under total Islamic law, and most interactions with the outside world were disallowed. To this day, I’d bet, there are many younger Iranians who have no idea of the awesome power of nuclear weapons. That in and of itself is very troubling indeed, because to not understand the ramifications of ones actions, is, in this case suicidal.

3. Your statement: “Frankly, I believe that every country should have one.” Is beyond my comprehension, except to say that you are not only very naive, but so myopic, that you perhaps shouldn’t be allowed out in public. In fact, I’m beginning to wonder if you’re actually a threat to society.


4. You say: “I think the empire-building would stop and dumbass countries like ours would not be influenced by shrewd countries like Israel in doing its dirty work.” You don’t seem to understand that the relationship between the United States and Israel is not so much as one country influencing another, as it is a relationship, based on common ideals, and a view of the world, and how each country sees itself, within the context of the overall. That’s the major difference between the relationship we have with Israel as opposed to the relationships we’ve established with most Middle Eastern countries.

5. Your final paragraph is quite telling. In it you say: “I do not condone killing, murder, nor war. Although I dislike the government of Israel and its policies along with AIPAC, I would still want them to be safe. However, as an American, I can't help but wonder how much better America and her people would be if there were no Israel or if we had absolutely no ties with it, didn't give it so many of our resources at the expense of the well being of Americans.” Please then explain how you would “get rid of Israel", while still “wanting them (Israelis) to be safe.”

6. As a final thought, instead of “playing Devils Advocate”, let me suggest that you just go “play in heavy traffic.”

JJ
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-09-2009, 09:13 AM Thread Starter
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So, you think Iran might start a nuclear war?

Yes, they might elect to go out in a blaze of glory and martyrdom if the present leadership remains in power.

As an aside, I remember processions of 100,000 people in Tehran during Ashura, flagellating themselves bloody with chains.
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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-09-2009, 09:50 AM
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Will Khatami halt Iran's nuclear program if elected?

My parents lived for a few years in Bahrain which has a significant Shiite population. My mother was terrified each Ashura. The next day, my father would wake up to 4 flat tyres on his car.. He assumed it was his punishment for not joining the whipping ceremonies.
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-09-2009, 09:56 AM
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That actually wouldn't scare me at all! What they do with themselves is their problem but what they do with the rest of the world is OUR problem.
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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-09-2009, 04:31 PM
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Cancer Researcher,

To be honest, it's difficult to even know where to start addressing your response, but let me try.

1. “So lets say that they do get them and even end up using them. So what? We used them. What happened to us? “ - To answer this statement/question, you need to understand our reasoning for using those nukes. We had been at war for almost 4 years, during that time, we lost over 400,000 soldiers, airman, Marines, Coast Guardsmen, and sailors, and with the upcoming invasion of the islands of Japan, very large number of American lives could have been lost. At least that was the assumption that caused President Harry Truman to sign an executive order, ordering the use of two atomic bombs. Both bombs caused terrible damage, both to the population and psyche of the Japanese peoples, but did result in the Japanese surrender, and the end of World War II. We then undertook the total governance and reconstruction of Japan, and it could be argued that it’s because of our benevolence, that they are the powerhouse country they are today. Oh so we just put a band-aid on them and everything is ok? And to "save American lives, we took so many more? You make a lot of sense there bud.

So how is that different, you ask, if Iran were to use nukes? Well, back in 1945, we were the only nation on earth that had those weapons, today, we’re not, and to make matters worse, nukes are in the hands of some rather unstable governments, such as Pakistan, Israel, China, North Korea, and Russia. If Iran were to get “the bomb”, just that fact alone would probably be enough to start another regional war. I believe that Israel would not allow Iran to have that weapon, based, if nothing else, on Iran’s stated goal of destroying Israel. War’s, like hurricanes, have a way of growing larger by feeding on themselves. Do you really believe that if Iran were to use a nuke, in a first strike scenario, that that would be the end of it? It wouldn’t you know. Israel would have to launch too, and once the nuclear genie is out of the bottle, it might prove impossible to get the little fucker back in.So you basically listed all the countries in that list as NOT deserving Nukes EXCEPT America and India? LMFAO at that one!

2. As for “the world forgetting” (about our use of nukes), don’t be ridiculous. No one has forgotten, except perhaps those who have never seen or know anything about the devastation caused by nuclear weapons. After the Shaw of Iran was deposed in the late 1970’s, the country fell under total Islamic law, and most interactions with the outside world were disallowed. To this day, I’d bet, there are many younger Iranians who have no idea of the awesome power of nuclear weapons. That in and of itself is very troubling indeed, because to not understand the ramifications of ones actions, is, in this case suicidal.Don't be a douche bag now. Howm many Iranians have you met or know? They not only are well read, educated, and quite intelligent. They are probably much more knowledgeable than the American public on pretty much everything that is happening around the world currently or in the past. It is us Americans who don't know our head from our asses. No wonder we rank so far behind all the other industrialized nations.

3. Your statement: “Frankly, I believe that every country should have one.” Is beyond my comprehension, except to say that you are not only very naive, but so myopic, that you perhaps shouldn’t be allowed out in public. In fact, I’m beginning to wonder if you’re actually a threat to society.
What gives you the right to judge me?

4. You say: “I think the empire-building would stop and dumbass countries like ours would not be influenced by shrewd countries like Israel in doing its dirty work.You don’t seem to understand that the relationship between the United States and Israel is not so much as one country influencing another, as it is a relationship, based on common ideals, and a view of the world, and how each country sees itself, within the context of the overall. World control and domination and raping the resources of the world while trying to keep the others down. Great common goals there.That’s the major difference between the relationship we have with Israel as opposed to the relationships we’ve established with most Middle Eastern countries.And they are supposed to kiss our asses by the way we treat them. We don't let them get ahead, we try to change the regimes of those countries whose leadership we don't like, we put sanctions on them when they don't listen to their self appointed "master" to keep them from achieving greatness and success. No wonder they hate us and attack us.

5. Your final paragraph is quite telling. In it you say: “I do not condone killing, murder, nor war. Although I dislike the government of Israel and its policies along with AIPAC, I would still want them to be safe. However, as an American, I can't help but wonder how much better America and her people would be if there were no Israel or if we had absolutely no ties with it, didn't give it so many of our resources at the expense of the well being of Americans.Please then explain how you would “get rid of Israel", while still “wanting them (Israelis) to be safe.”Please show me where I said "get rid" on them. The implication was if "it didn't exist", meaning if it had not been created by stealing the land away from the Palestinians, and kicking them out.

6. As a final thought, instead of “playing Devils Advocate”, let me suggest that you just go “play in heavy traffic.
Wow. I always love people who resort to personal attacks. OH BTW, WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT YOU WHEN YOU ARE EITHER WISHING ME HURT OR DEAD!

JJ
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-09-2009, 11:19 PM Thread Starter
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Some people here have to chill. It shouldn't be too hard to argue opinions without getting 'personal.'
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-09-2009, 11:23 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tahloube View Post
Will Khatami halt Iran's nuclear program if elected?

My parents lived for a few years in Bahrain which has a significant Shiite population. My mother was terrified each Ashura. The next day, my father would wake up to 4 flat tyres on his car.. He assumed it was his punishment for not joining the whipping ceremonies.
Iran only relinquished its historical claim in 1970. England in its infinite wisdom propped up the still corrupt Al Khalifa clan.
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