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post #101 of 143 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Multipurpose View Post
Are they Americans?
Who, the authors of the COTUS? Not any more.

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post #102 of 143 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 09:17 PM
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Who, the authors of the COTUS? Not any more.
I'm not sure any were when they wrote it either.

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post #103 of 143 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 09:20 PM
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Who, the authors of the COTUS? Not any more.
It's just a piece of paper.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

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post #104 of 143 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 09:39 PM
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110th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. J. RES. 23

Clarifying that the use of force against Iran is not authorized by the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq, any resolution previously adopted, or any other provision of law.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

November 1, 2007

Mr. REID (for Mr. OBAMA) introduced the following joint resolution; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Foreign Relations

JOINT RESOLUTION

Clarifying that the use of force against Iran is not authorized by the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq, any resolution previously adopted, or any other provision of law.

Whereas the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq (Public Law 107-243) authorized the President `to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq';

Whereas, on September 26, 2007, the Senate agreed to a provision, Senate Amendment 3017 to Senate Amendment 2011 to H.R. 1585, stating the sense of the Senate that `the manner in which the United States transitions and structures its military presence in Iraq will have critical long-term consequences for the future of the Persian Gulf and the Middle East, in particular with regard to the capability of the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran to pose a threat to the security of the region';

Whereas, on September 26, 2007, the Senate also stated the sense of the Senate `that it is a critical national interest of the United States to prevent the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran from turning Shi'a militia extremists in Iraq into a Hezbollah-like force that could serve its interests inside Iraq';

Whereas, on October 25, 2007, the Department of State designated the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) and the Ministry of Defense and Armed Forces Logistics (MODAFL) as proliferators of weapons of mass destruction under Executive Order 13382 in relation to concerns about their role in proliferation activities;

Whereas, on October 25, 2007, the Department of the Treasury also designated 9 IRGC-affiliated entities and 5 IRGC-affiliated individuals, as derivatives of the IRGC, as well as Iran's state-owned Bank Melli and Bank Mellat and 3 individuals affiliated with Iran's Aerospace Industries Organization (AIO), as proliferators of weapons of mass destruction or supporters of terrorism under Executive Order 13382;

Whereas, on October 25, 2007, the Department of the Treasury also designated the IRGC-Qods Force (IRGC-QF) as a supporter of terrorism for providing material support to the Taliban and other terrorist organizations, and designated Iran's state-owned Bank Saderat as a terrorist financier, under Executive Order 13224; and

Whereas any offensive military action taken by the United States against Iran must be explicitly authorized by Congress: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That nothing in the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq (Public Law 107-243), any act that serves as the statutory authority for Executive Order 13382 or Executive Order 13224, any resolution previously adopted, or any other provision of law including the terms of Executive Order 13382 or Executive Order 13224 shall be construed to authorize, encourage, or in any way address the use of the Armed Forces of the United States against Iran.
It was SJ23, from the 107th Congress, not the 110th, my bad on the link. It became Public Law 107-40. Correct link.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:publ040.107

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post #105 of 143 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jimsmith
...
Get a grip. This is America. Not some third world dictatorship where killing and torturing is the norm. Jim
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...
You just tried to move the argument from Jim's statement that we don't kill or torture PRISONERS to what is done in the confines of a declared conflict. Those are two completely different scenarios.
I read Jim's post above as referring to the acts in general and thus my correction.
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post #106 of 143 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 09:56 PM Thread Starter
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And while you and bottom might believe that Real Life is not as simplistic as we would like to portray, that is where you are wrong. There are very specific RULES of Engagement that fully define every conflict. And there are laws that fully define our country's civilization. Obeying them really is pretty simple. It only gets complex when folks try to circumvent the laws and rules.
Bear,
What is torture ? Where is the line drawn between rough treatment and what is considered torture ? The RULES and LAWS you cling to, where are these acts classified ?

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post #107 of 143 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 10:08 PM
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How 'bout we check the COTUS instead?
Amendment 6 - Right to Speedy Trial, Confrontation of Witnesses. Ratified 12/15/1791.

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

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post #108 of 143 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 10:08 PM
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Bear,
What is torture ? Where is the line drawn between rough treatment and what is considered torture ? The RULES and LAWS you cling to, where are these acts classified ?
I posted the US Code a bit back that defines torture by US LAW and references the Geneva Conventions.

Hold one.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by McBear
Torture.— The act of a person who commits, or conspires or attempts to commit, an act specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control for the purpose of obtaining information or a confession, punishment, intimidation, coercion, or any reason based on discrimination of any kind.

US CODE Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 118, Section 2441 D,1,a

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post #109 of 143 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 10:13 PM
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Here is the actual US LAW from the link above

US CODE: Title 18,2441. War crimes

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post #110 of 143 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 10:19 PM
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Your idealism runneth over in that last statement of yours. It is a fact that America has been killing, in the BA and still is in the OBA, potential terrorists or combatants in this war. Let's get that misstatement out of the way first.

Second, has the US justice system clearly delineated what is torture ? Are shackling and imprisonment in a bare boned cell torture ? Is feeding of Western meals to Muslim prisoners torture ? Are lengthy interrogation sessions torture ? As bottomline suggests, please come back down to Earth from the high pulpit. Real life is not as simplistic as you would like to portray.
Jane! You ignorant slut!

My last statement in the post you quoted could have been clearer, however you clearly and purposely took it out of context to try to make your slimy perspective appear to be "practical" or "pragmatic" as it must just be socially inevitable. In fact, I was referring to the practice of killing and torturing those in the custody of the government. You know, political prisoners. Ones who have not been charged with anything specific and are not given a chance to be freed by due process of law. Like all those Iraqis Saddam was busy torturing and killing that you anomalous, bleeding heart liberals, living out on the little Hoerner tips of the right wing were so taken with that you insisted the United States go over there and depose the dastardly dictator and put a stop to his horrible practices.

How is it that when "we" do it, you find the practice pragmatic and socially inevitable? Excuse me if I don't join your effort to portray torture and killiing OF POLITICAL PRISONERS or CAPTURED TERRORISTS who are POLITICAL PRISONERS without the rights our Constitution says are due all men (meaning people), namely the right to due process under the law, as pragmatic or practical or even socially inevitable. It is disgusting and un-American.

Jim
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