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post #21 of 217 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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The primary issue is that you can't exercise tax cuts while also continuing a policy of deficit spending. The reduction of revenue requires additional borrowing which further drains revenues with additional debt maintenance.

I know the supply siders love to say that tax cuts generate revenues. Only problem is, there is no proof of that because the government, at the same time is also injecting monies into the appropriations stream through borrowing which mimics "growth" without actually providing that growth.

Studies from the 1981 Reagan tax cut show that they negatively impacted the GDP by 3% in the first two years. That sharp decline is why, in the first 13 months Reagan went from TAX CUT to the largest Tax Increase as a percentage of GDP in US History. The deficit spending associated with the tax cuts simply drained the system at a rate that was not expected.

In 1990 Bush 1 experienced the very same issue and the following recession lost him a second term. Bush 2 experienced the very same issue in both 2003 and again in 2006-2008 and provided a catalyst for a Democratic victory in 2008. The three times Supply Side Economics have been tried, and deficit spending have been associated with them they have failed.

The Limbaugh farce, and that is really all it is, comes with a Supply Side/Deficit Spending equation already designed into the system. How many times does the NeoCon mind have to experience the same lesson of failure before they learn to consider a different set of options?
By the way how is it that there is no proof that tax cuts increase GDP and that the growth in GDP is mimicked by the spending that is done on borrowed money, but then you follow up with the point that the GDP was negatively impacted by 3%. How does that work? I mean if they are spending and increasing the GDP then why did the GDP decrease?

Who's John Galt.

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post #22 of 217 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 07:16 PM
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So are you focusing on the 0.02% that is some serious pork earmarks or are you focusing on the 99.98% that is not?
But, but, we need it now!
Same shit just a different leader & party. CHANGE you can believe in, wasn't it?
.02% that could be better spent!

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post #23 of 217 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
The primary issue is that you can't exercise tax cuts while also continuing a policy of deficit spending. The reduction of revenue requires additional borrowing which further drains revenues with additional debt maintenance.

I know the supply siders love to say that tax cuts generate revenues. Only problem is, there is no proof of that because the government, at the same time is also injecting monies into the appropriations stream through borrowing which mimics "growth" without actually providing that growth.

Studies from the 1981 Reagan tax cut show that they negatively impacted the GDP by 3% in the first two years. That sharp decline is why, in the first 13 months Reagan went from TAX CUT to the largest Tax Increase as a percentage of GDP in US History. The deficit spending associated with the tax cuts simply drained the system at a rate that was not expected.

In 1990 Bush 1 experienced the very same issue and the following recession lost him a second term. Bush 2 experienced the very same issue in both 2003 and again in 2006-2008 and provided a catalyst for a Democratic victory in 2008. The three times Supply Side Economics have been tried, and deficit spending have been associated with them they have failed.

The Limbaugh farce, and that is really all it is, comes with a Supply Side/Deficit Spending equation already designed into the system. How many times does the NeoCon mind have to experience the same lesson of failure before they learn to consider a different set of options?
It's just something for the press on both side to babble about. Look around boys. The fix is in. Do you see banks doing anything other than hedging their own positions? We're witnessing the intentional destruction of the dollar. Deep down everyone knows that this rescue bill won't amount to a rat fuck worth of economic growth. It's not the dems or republicans fault. They're just unwitting players. There's a global currency around the corner. You'll wake up one day to find that the value of your assets has been adjusted accordingly. It's all slight of hand and misdirection.

For your enlightenment:
EnterpriseCorruption.com ec’s journal (week of January 25 2009) page 22
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post #24 of 217 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 08:19 PM
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By the way how is it that there is no proof that tax cuts increase GDP and that the growth in GDP is mimicked by the spending that is done on borrowed money, but then you follow up with the point that the GDP was negatively impacted by 3%. How does that work? I mean if they are spending and increasing the GDP then why did the GDP decrease?
You would have to ask the UC researchers that did the study for the definitive.

But my guess is the conditions in 1981 were somewhat different in that they were the START of deficit spending so it was very easy to track the differentials. The problem was they simply cut entirely too much revenue [easily tractable], knew the spending deficits [also easily tractable] and there was not enough deficit spending at the beginning of the first cycle to mask. Remember, they changed course after just 13 months so the window for analysis was very easy to work with.

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post #25 of 217 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 08:20 PM
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But, but, we need it now!
Same shit just a different leader & party. CHANGE you can believe in, wasn't it?
.02% that could be better spent!
I don't argue that the pork could be better spend. I just find it very funny that the focus is on the 0.2% NIT instead of the 99.98% body of the bill that is the most important and significant.

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post #26 of 217 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ogrenutz View Post
It's just something for the press on both side to babble about. Look around boys. The fix is in. Do you see banks doing anything other than hedging their own positions? We're witnessing the intentional destruction of the dollar. Deep down everyone knows that this rescue bill won't amount to a rat fuck worth of economic growth. It's not the dems or republicans fault. They're just unwitting players. There's a global currency around the corner. You'll wake up one day to find that the value of your assets has been adjusted accordingly. It's all slight of hand and misdirection.

For your enlightenment:
EnterpriseCorruption.com ec’s journal (week of January 25 2009) page 22
Dammit is was an Obelisk. I was betting it would be a Pyramid.

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post #27 of 217 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 08:46 PM
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Dammit is was an Obelisk. I was betting it would be a Pyramid.
LOL. Yeah, you're right. This whole financial thing was probably just an accident. It wasn't by design. It was lack of oversight, too much debt, people living above their means, housing values over inflated blah blah. I'm gonna have to pull out the monkey analogy on you. I didn't want to have to do it, but you've left me no choice.

Once upon a time a man appeared in a village and announced to the villagers that he would buy monkeys for $10 each.


The villagers, seeing that there were many monkeys around, went out to the forest and started catching them. The man bought thousands at $10 and, as supply started to diminish, the villagers stopped their effort. He next announced that he would now buy monkeys at $20 each. This renewed the efforts of the villagers and they started catching monkeys again. Soon the supply diminished even further and people started going back to their farms.

The offer increased to $25 each and the supply of monkeys became so scarce it was an effort to even find a monkey, let alone catch it!



The man now announced that he would buy monkeys at $50 each! However, since he had to go to the city on some business, his assistant would buy on his behalf. In the absence of the man, the assistant told the villagers: "Look at all these monkeys in the big cage that the man has already collected I will sell them to you at $35 and when the man returns from the city, you can sell them to him for $50 each."

The villagers rounded up all their savings and bought all the monkeys for 700 billion dollars. They never saw the man or his assistant again, only lots and lots of monkeys!



Now you have a better understanding of how the
WALL STREET BAILOUT PLAN WORKS!!!!
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post #28 of 217 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 08:53 PM
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I don't argue that the pork could be better spend. I just find it very funny that the focus is on the 0.2% NIT instead of the 99.98% body of the bill that is the most important and significant.
Give these monies back to the people "who actually paid taxes" and let them spend it as they see fit! Fuck the libs pet projects.


There's $1 billion for Amtrak

$2 billion for child-care subsidies;

$50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts;

$400 million for global-warming research

$2.4 billion for carbon-capture demonstration projects.

$650 million for digital TV conversion coupons.

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post #29 of 217 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ogrenutz View Post
LOL. Yeah, you're right. This whole financial thing was probably just an accident. It wasn't by design. It was lack of oversight, too much debt, people living above their means, housing values over inflated blah blah. I'm gonna have to pull out the monkey analogy on you. I didn't want to have to do it, but you've left me no choice.

Once upon a time a man appeared in a village and announced to the villagers that he would buy monkeys for $10 each.


The villagers, seeing that there were many monkeys around, went out to the forest and started catching them. The man bought thousands at $10 and, as supply started to diminish, the villagers stopped their effort. He next announced that he would now buy monkeys at $20 each. This renewed the efforts of the villagers and they started catching monkeys again. Soon the supply diminished even further and people started going back to their farms.

The offer increased to $25 each and the supply of monkeys became so scarce it was an effort to even find a monkey, let alone catch it!



The man now announced that he would buy monkeys at $50 each! However, since he had to go to the city on some business, his assistant would buy on his behalf. In the absence of the man, the assistant told the villagers: "Look at all these monkeys in the big cage that the man has already collected I will sell them to you at $35 and when the man returns from the city, you can sell them to him for $50 each."

The villagers rounded up all their savings and bought all the monkeys for 700 billion dollars. They never saw the man or his assistant again, only lots and lots of monkeys!



Now you have a better understanding of how the
WALL STREET BAILOUT PLAN WORKS!!!!
I have a better one but am too tired to type it.

I have come to the conclusion long ago that there is just no way that anyone in the Bush Administration, the SEC, FED or World Bank was smart enough to participate in a world wide monetary conspiracy. It would have required entirely too much skill that they have proven to not have.

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post #30 of 217 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 11:12 PM
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Give these monies back to the people "who actually paid taxes" and let them spend it as they see fit! Fuck the libs pet projects.


There's $1 billion for Amtrak

$2 billion for child-care subsidies;

$50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts;

$400 million for global-warming research

$2.4 billion for carbon-capture demonstration projects.

$650 million for digital TV conversion coupons.
Let's look at those "lib" pet projects.

The $2B in child care subsidies as an example. That money would go to people who have kids, who then pay child care centers to take care of their kids so they can go work. The child care center can pay their employees. Now you have paychecks going to a multiple of low and middle income people who will, statistically then spend the money on consumables. Isn't that what the stimulus program is suppose to do?

Now, same with the National Endowment for the Arts. Monies go to radio shows, Educational TV programs, video, producers, editors, directors, photographers, museum workers. They cash their checks and infuse money into the economy. Isn't that what the stimulus program is suppose to do?

Global warming research: That money goes to Universities which pays researchers, teachers, labrats, technicians who all cash their checks and...

Amtrak is part of Infrastructure, that puts lots of people to work either building train cars or laying rail or rebuilding stations. They get paychecks.

Only one I don't really get is the digital TV conversion coupons and I have two thoughts on it. First, the feds are selling the frequencies at 20X what the coupon program costs so it is not a burden program and Second, with the coupon folks would buy the box which I would assume would churn the economy at some level. I would think they might hope folks will buy a new TV since they get the new digital conversion box. Churn. Money. Stimulus.

McBear,
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