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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 01:09 AM Thread Starter
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Boehner "Oh My God"

Well that is fine Mr. Boehner but where the F#$k were you when Bush was spending like a drunken Sailor? Where were you on the Highway and Farm Appropriations bill about 5 years ago?

The Note: Republicans Find Voice in Opposing Stimulus: 'Oh, My God'

Freakin politicians make me sick. The Democrats want to take us to financial ruin on the express train and the Republican want to do it on the Local.

Please, please, please would a true small Government Conservative step up?

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 07:40 AM
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That's the difference between the two parties - Democrats vote in people who do exactly what we are asking for, while Republicans vote in people who fuck them in the ass. There's a lesson in there for you.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 11:40 AM
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Well that is fine Mr. Boehner but where the F#$k were you when Bush was spending like a drunken Sailor? Where were you on the Highway and Farm Appropriations bill about 5 years ago?

The Note: Republicans Find Voice in Opposing Stimulus: 'Oh, My God'

Freakin politicians make me sick. The Democrats want to take us to financial ruin on the express train and the Republican want to do it on the Local.

Please, please, please would a true small Government Conservative step up?
With the first half I agree. Bhehner and McConnell are acting like they were not even in DC during the six years that Bushie and Congress ran up $5T in deficit spending. And now this faux shock would be laughable if it were not for the consequence.

As for a "true small Government Conservative". I fear that, even if one showed up, and could get a coalition together to pass everything they wanted to clamp down government, we would simply push the cost, burden and issues down to the state level who have proven to be even less capable of fiscal management. The problems would remain, it would just be different folks generating them.

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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 12:29 PM
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Has this country ever seen any such thing as a 'small government conservative'? Reagan, the great God of the right wasn't one. Who has ever been? It's another sucker line, giving more weight to my argument that the GOP is essentially The Sucker's Party, an organization dedicated to pulling in suckers for The Very Very Rich, and conning them into voting against their own best interest. The Very Very Rich don't get richer off of small government, just ask the last guy who took them for suckers, George Bush, or better yet ask his boss, Cheney.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
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Has this country ever seen any such thing as a 'small government conservative'? Reagan, the great God of the right wasn't one. Who has ever been? It's another sucker line, giving more weight to my argument that the GOP is essentially The Sucker's Party, an organization dedicated to pulling in suckers for The Very Very Rich, and conning them into voting against their own best interest. The Very Very Rich don't get richer off of small government, just ask the last guy who took them for suckers, George Bush, or better yet ask his boss, Cheney.
Reagan was most definitely a Small Government Conservative. He shrank the bureauracracy, grew the military, reduced the Government's involvement in our personal affairs, reduced taxes, the list goes on and on.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 10:02 PM
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Reagan was most definitely a Small Government Conservative. He shrank the bureauracracy, grew the military, reduced the Government's involvement in our personal affairs, reduced taxes, the list goes on and on.
Let's see, the Federal Budget GREW from 678,241,000 to 1,143,646,000 in those eight years.

The ONLY presidents to actually shrink government in the past 50 years are Carter and Clinton. [BLS]

Total CIVILIAN Federal Workforce

Kennedy: 782,000-857,000
Johnson: 857,000-960,000
Nixon/Ford: 960,000-1,173,000
Carter: 1,173,000-1,159,000 -14,000
Reagan: 1,159,000-1,162,000
Bush1: 1,162,000-1,256,000
Clinton:1,256,000-1,151,000 -105,000
Bush2: 1,151,000-1,851,000

Now, about those taxes. In 1982, Reagan launched a $100BILLION tax hike, the largest since WW2. He followed it up with a $50BILLION Tax Hike in 1984 with a rise in the Gasoline tax in 1983 thrown in for good luck. In 1986 he landed the largest Corporate tax increase in history with a $120BILLION increase and closed $300BILLION in loopholes.

Here is a VERY partisan view of it but it is the most humorous overview of the "small Government Conservative" that I scanned. It is, however very accurate in its numbers.
"Reagan's Liberal Legacy" by Joshua Green

Exactly where did this "shrinking" occur? Would it be taxpayer's wallets?

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 10:15 PM Thread Starter
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Let's see, the Federal Budget GREW from 678,241,000 to 1,143,646,000 in those eight years.

The ONLY presidents to actually shrink government in the past 50 years are Carter and Clinton. [BLS]

Total CIVILIAN Federal Workforce

Kennedy: 782,000-857,000
Johnson: 857,000-960,000
Nixon/Ford: 960,000-1,173,000
Carter: 1,173,000-1,159,000 -14,000
Reagan: 1,159,000-1,162,000
Bush1: 1,162,000-1,256,000
Clinton:1,256,000-1,151,000 -105,000
Bush2: 1,151,000-1,851,000

Now, about those taxes. In 1982, Reagan launched a $100BILLION tax hike, the largest since WW2. He followed it up with a $50BILLION Tax Hike in 1984 with a rise in the Gasoline tax in 1983 thrown in for good luck. In 1986 he landed the largest Corporate tax increase in history with a $120BILLION increase and closed $300BILLION in loopholes.

Here is a VERY partisan view of it but it is the most humorous overview of the "small Government Conservative" that I scanned. It is, however very accurate in its numbers.
"Reagan's Liberal Legacy" by Joshua Green

Exactly where did this "shrinking" occur? Would it be taxpayer's wallets?
Just a side note there McBear but if you dig into the numbers on Reagan you will see that the CIVILIAN work force numbers include the vanguard of the "Civilianization" of our military support agencies. This was a direct result of the expansion of the military. Take those out and I bet you would see an overall decrease. As I can not find a statistic that has that number (Civilians working in Military Sector) I do not have the specific number.

As for your assertion about Reagan's Tax Hikes you are so far off base it is laughable. Your hatred is very transparent.

Reagan's tax cut of 1981 under the ERTA (Economic Recovery Tax Act) Slashed Taxes by $268 Billion. This was a 23% decrease in the individual tax rate. The biggest problem was the Congressional Cowards unwillingness to cut spending that grew the deficit to exhorbitant levels. "Starve the Beast" would have worked except for the idiots in congress just writing checks for every single program they could find.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 10:29 PM
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Just a side note there McBear but if you dig into the numbers on Reagan you will see that the CIVILIAN work force numbers include the vanguard of the "Civilianization" of our military support agencies. This was a direct result of the expansion of the military. Take those out and I bet you would see an overall decrease. As I can not find a statistic that has that number (Civilians working in Military Sector) I do not have the specific number.

As for your assertion about Reagan's Tax Hikes you are so far off base it is laughable. Your hatred is very transparent.

Reagan's tax cut of 1981 under the ERTA (Economic Recovery Tax Act) Slashed Taxes by $268 Billion. This was a 23% decrease in the individual tax rate. The biggest problem was the Congressional Cowards unwillingness to cut spending that grew the deficit to exhorbitant levels. "Starve the Beast" would have worked except for the idiots in congress just writing checks for every single program they could find.
Sorry to burst your bubble but BLS breaks it down so that is NOT a confusion. CIVILIAN means just that. Now when you read that article, you will see a higher number [+61,000]. THAT number is all inclusive. I didn't use it because I wanted to maintain BLS consistency. I also didn't use the -373,000 Clinton number for that same reason.

The tax hikes are common knowledge. They are printed damned near everywhere. Now as for the 1981 cut, you are correct. Now, for the bonus, find Reagan's own words on how he OVER CUT.

Now, as for being "off base". Show me where a single one of those tax increases were not implemented by Reagan, at his behest, not the Democrats. I lived through this real time, not from listening to Hannity and Rush, you are really going to need to pay attention instead of spewing dogma. FACTS please.

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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 10:40 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry to burst your bubble but BLS breaks it down so that is NOT a confusion. CIVILIAN means just that. Now when you read that article, you will see a higher number [+61,000]. THAT number is all inclusive. I didn't use it because I wanted to maintain BLS consistency. I also didn't use the -373,000 Clinton number for that same reason.

The tax hikes are common knowledge. They are printed damned near everywhere. Now as for the 1981 cut, you are correct. Now, for the bonus, find Reagan's own words on how he OVER CUT.

Now, as for being "off base". Show me where a single one of those tax increases were not implemented by Reagan, at his behest, not the Democrats. I lived through this real time, not from listening to Hannity and Rush, you are really going to need to pay attention instead of spewing dogma. FACTS please.
I never said he did not raise taxes. I am saying that the net effect was a tax reduction. Maybe you should read what I wrote again.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 10:50 PM
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I never said he did not raise taxes. I am saying that the net effect was a tax reduction. Maybe you should read what I wrote again.
Actually, the aggregate was a tax increase, by a substanative amount. Remember, the original 1981 $268Billion Tax cut was calculated to show savings over THREE YEARS. In 1982 is was rescinded so only 1/3 of its benefit was implemented. Of the four major tax hikes, however, all of which were multi-year, they ALL continued to fruition.

Again, there is nothing at all wrong with tax cuts. They are a great idea and will work very well IF you are disciplined and do not also deficit spend. That has been the major failure of Supply Side Economics from Reagan, Bush1 and Bush2, the inability to keep spending in check if tax cuts are implemented.

You suggest that I have "hatred". I do. For immature, half baked economic policy that puts the country in economic and strategic danger.

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