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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 08:31 PM
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So then you admit that Cheney did not direct or cherry pick certain intelligence. I am glad that you at least can be honest when presented with evidence.
um, that was not evidence that he was not involved, it was testimony from ONE report. The first person accounts from the 9/11 commission report and from other reports that have popped up in the past five years fully validate it.

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As for the Brits, I raise this point again, Politicians go the way the wind blows with certain rare exceptions. Blair was everybit a politician who had a population that was more antiwar than the US. So by your argument, the Brits went in believing in false premises and the leadership all went hook-line-and-sinker following Bush, against public opinion because he is so gosh darn persuasive.

That just does not pass the sniff test.

And besides, since when was Weapons of Mass Destruction the main reason we went to war in Iraq?
I am not sure which excuse you were told to pump you up for service in the desert but WMD was the principle INITIAL cause. After the fact, when the intel issue came up and WMDs were not found as was expected by Blix and others the reason kept changing. Freedom for Iraqis, Democracy, Foothold in the region, Get Saddam, concern for Israel, Al Queda [although until we started a war and created a vacuum there was no AQ in Iraq]. The answer changed every time the previous one failed to work. Facts kept getting in the way of BS.

You are really going to have to do better than dogma as an answer. There is just too much readily available information to shoot that down.

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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 10:20 PM Thread Starter
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um, that was not evidence that he was not involved, it was testimony from ONE report. The first person accounts from the 9/11 commission report and from other reports that have popped up in the past five years fully validate it.

I am not sure which excuse you were told to pump you up for service in the desert but WMD was the principle INITIAL cause. After the fact, when the intel issue came up and WMDs were not found as was expected by Blix and others the reason kept changing. Freedom for Iraqis, Democracy, Foothold in the region, Get Saddam, concern for Israel, Al Queda [although until we started a war and created a vacuum there was no AQ in Iraq]. The answer changed every time the previous one failed to work. Facts kept getting in the way of BS.

You are really going to have to do better than dogma as an answer. There is just too much readily available information to shoot that down.
McBear please educate us all, the great unwashed, on what President Bush said was the reason for going into Iraq. If you can please quote him. Feel Free to use his State of the Union Address, the Address to the UN, Colin Powell's speech to the UN, etc.

You will find that it was part of list that was long. And do us all a favor, you portray yourself as this great neutral intellectual, please try and practice a little bit of what you preach and refrain from the "The answer changed everytime the previous one failed to work." The only mistake in the whole justification for war was that Hussein got rid of the WMD before we got there and we did not catch it.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 11:06 PM
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McBear please educate us all, the great unwashed, on what President Bush said was the reason for going into Iraq. If you can please quote him. Feel Free to use his State of the Union Address, the Address to the UN, Colin Powell's speech to the UN, etc.

You will find that it was part of list that was long. And do us all a favor, you portray yourself as this great neutral intellectual, please try and practice a little bit of what you preach and refrain from the "The answer changed everytime the previous one failed to work." The only mistake in the whole justification for war was that Hussein got rid of the WMD before we got there and we did not catch it.
Let's address this first. The UN inspectors verified that there were NO WMDs. The residue material dated back to 1991. There was no "snuck out of the country" We have been there for five years. One would think that might come to light by now.

As for the list of the reasons used by Bush, Powell, Fleisher, McClellan, Snow, Perino, they have all been posted up here numerous times and are splattered all over the web. If you really need an education in that subject I suggest google or the BW search engine. You will find a very concise list and chronology. If you want to KNOW, YOU will do the research. If you want to continue to ASSUME, you will not. Your choice. We covered this subject entirely too many times on BWOT.

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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-16-2009, 11:22 PM Thread Starter
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Let's address this first. The UN inspectors verified that there were NO WMDs. The residue material dated back to 1991. There was no "snuck out of the country" We have been there for five years. One would think that might come to light by now.

As for the list of the reasons used by Bush, Powell, Fleisher, McClellan, Snow, Perino, they have all been posted up here numerous times and are splattered all over the web. If you really need an education in that subject I suggest google or the BW search engine. You will find a very concise list and chronology. If you want to KNOW, YOU will do the research. If you want to continue to ASSUME, you will not. Your choice. We covered this subject entirely too many times on BWOT.
I already know. To use your words I was living it there skippy.

What I am trying gauge is your ability to at least be intellectually honest about all the reasons we went to war. So far you have only been able to spout off with the FTL, Code Pink, Huffington line of mischaracterized bullshit.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-17-2009, 12:00 AM
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I already know. To use your words I was living it there skippy.

What I am trying gauge is your ability to at least be intellectually honest about all the reasons we went to war. So far you have only been able to spout off with the FTL, Code Pink, Huffington line of mischaracterized bullshit.
Sorry, my reading does not include those [except FTL most of the time]. My reading comes from legit sources. So if you have already read about it, you KNOW the variety of excuses that were used. So why were you being obtuse about it?

Oh, and remember, some of us still do work government contracts so don't assume you are the only one who was "living it". And I just bet I had much more reliable sources than you. Remember the Bluegrass Army Depot and their NBC unit is located here.

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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-17-2009, 02:39 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry, my reading does not include those [except FTL most of the time]. My reading comes from legit sources. So if you have already read about it, you KNOW the variety of excuses that were used. So why were you being obtuse about it?

Oh, and remember, some of us still do work government contracts so don't assume you are the only one who was "living it". And I just bet I had much more reliable sources than you. Remember the Bluegrass Army Depot and their NBC unit is located here.
I'm not being obtuse at all. I am trying to draw out from you your version of the reasons we went to war in Iraq. You seem to only delay and obfuscate on the question with such responses as that amount to "I know that I know, but do you know that I know that you know I think I know the reasons?"

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-17-2009, 11:43 AM
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I'm not being obtuse at all. I am trying to draw out from you your version of the reasons we went to war in Iraq. You seem to only delay and obfuscate on the question with such responses as that amount to "I know that I know, but do you know that I know that you know I think I know the reasons?"
As I said earlier, hit the BWOT search button. Most folks would agree that I posted volumes of both links, backup docs and opinion.

It is just a topic that has had enough very proven discussion to need to go "proofing" again.

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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-17-2009, 05:32 PM Thread Starter
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As I said earlier, hit the BWOT search button. Most folks would agree that I posted volumes of both links, backup docs and opinion.

It is just a topic that has had enough very proven discussion to need to go "proofing" again.
Whatever, your reluctance to illustrate any of this with a simple two or three sentences is evidence enough.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-17-2009, 09:01 PM
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Of course, the fact that the UN Weapons Inspectors were giving everyone completely accurate information on the status of Iraq, and the Security Council's refusal to give it's permission for our Hitler style invasion matters not a wit to you, does it? Remember when Bush claimed the UN inspectors were being "duped", and how we now know today the one being duped was him? How about when they asked for six more weeks to complete their inspections in which they claimed they could obtain definitive proof that Colin Powell's claims of "mobile weapons labs" and "six months to a nuclear bomb" were false? All of this happened after the Congressional actions. The Congress did not direct a war be fought, it gave Bush the power to act. Bush clearly acted in a fashion that showed he was determined to have his war no matter what the real facts were. Instead of giving Hans Blix the six weeks he sought to get the real facts, Bush attacked Iraq in one of the bloodiest acts of mass murder in human history, the "Shock and Awe" attack of March 2003, where Bush made the decision to attack the largest population centers of a defenseless nation with some of the most horrific weapons known to man. It was an act of calculated mass murder against defenseless, innocent people, and this nation will bear it in shame.
Correct. If there is any doubt in minds of people that this Iraq war was planned long before 9/11/2001, consider the letter to president Clinton, delivered sometime in January 1998, and signed by Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, etc., urging Clinton to remove Sadaam Hussein from power. And several of the signatories were on top of the DOD food chain in the Bush administration.

Letter to President Clinton on Iraq

The 9/11 tragedy was merely a convenient opportunity for the Neocons to start this war. Saddam Hussein was causing too much turmoil in the oil business and causing unpleasant oil price fluctuations. He also intended to sell his oil to China and keep American companies out of his oil fields. He had to go. So it was about the OIL after all.

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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-17-2009, 09:19 PM Thread Starter
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Correct. If there is any doubt in minds of people that this Iraq war was planned long before 9/11/2001, consider the letter to president Clinton, delivered sometime in January 1998, and signed by Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, etc., urging Clinton to remove Sadaam Hussein from power. And several of the signatories were on top of the DOD food chain in the Bush administration.

Letter to President Clinton on Iraq

The 9/11 tragedy was merely a convenient opportunity for the Neocons to start this war. Saddam Hussein was causing too much turmoil in the oil business and causing unpleasant oil price fluctuations. He also intended to sell his oil to China and keep American companies out of his oil fields. He had to go. So it was about the OIL after all.
Ah yes well you should be very happy that Obama will remove the troops from Iraq the very day he takes office. I mean that is the plan right?

Of course anything less would be validating the policy that Bush had.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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