450 dead and 2300 injured are not enough.. - Page 68 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #671 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 02:12 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Difflock View Post
Tsk tsk
Smoke bombs
containing white phosporous
We were trained in their use in the TA
One must not use them against enemy combatants
However if one needed to obscure visibility to cover a ground assualt
Fine, carry on.
Oh the nicities of armed combat
They were fired from fighter jets from day one as an assault weapon because there were no Israeli troops on the ground. The ground offensive followed a week later. So, white phosphorus wasn't used to obscure visibility. It was used, IMHO, as a terrorizing weapon against civilians in a bid to turn them against Hamas and other resistance movements.
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post #672 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 03:50 AM
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Ok
But to obscure the vision of the Hamas terrorist/fighters to prevent them shooting the jets down?
Same logic?
Que
Edited
Jetjok
Ignore my ramblings, I was only ever a peacetime / part time "grunt" with no interest in the Army ( or Navy or Airforce )
excepting that they had the smallarms that I loved shooting at targets with
Sigh
Happy days

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post #673 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 06:04 AM
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Although I wasn't there, I can tell you from experience that rockets fired from fighters that are filled with Willie Pete (White Phosphorous) have not been used as weapons. They ARE used for marking targets, that would then be bombed. Artillery rounds with WP are usually used to produce smoke screens on battle fields, but certainly could be used as a weapon. However, the greatest problem with WP is not the burn that it causes, but the fact that it damages both internal organs as well as the circulatory (blood) system. It is bad stuff. It sticks to skin, and the only way to stop it from burning is to submerse that portion of the body in water. It will reignite when it is taken out of water. Really bad stuff, and shouldn't be used against people, even Palestinians, or more specifically Hamas fighters.

JJ
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post #674 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 12:56 AM Thread Starter
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Fun?? The dead and maimed are a source of fun? Or is it something else?
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post #675 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 01:48 AM Thread Starter
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1. Actually, Israel has never been forced to negotiate a peace deal, either with the Palestinians, nor with any other Arab countries. At least not by those combatants. If they were "forced" to negotiate, it was by the U.S. and other Allies, who explained to Israel that aid that they were receiving might disappear if peace was not made. However, because the Arabs really don't want "peace", any negotiation is really just about a delaying tactic until the Arabs can again mass manpower and weapons to continue the fight. It's been that way from the beginning, and I don't see it changing any time soon.
Why wasn't it 'forced by its allies' before the Intifada wore Israel down?? Nonsense. Israel have always ignored Palestinians altogether until they took the matter to their hands and a certain pressure was applied to Israeli society by the Intifada. Israeli society couldn't tolerate the price of Intifada and the Israeli Government had to do something. When the Intifada stopped, Israel stalled the peace process. Israel will never give Palestinians a thing as it sees itself too strong. Only resistance reminds Israelis that for peace and security, Israel has to give something in return for the Palestinians. Else, Israelis will vote in another government that can give them security. It's no secret now that Israel thinks it can get security by waging more wars. But wars give more legitimacy to resistance as it further convinces people of Israel's ill intentions and lack of interest in peace.

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2. Oh, I thought you were referring to President Bush.
.

Trust me.. He's worse. Ask Drew.


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3. The difference of course between Hamas and "Arab armies" is that during the 1967 War, those same Arab armies fought a conventional war, out in the open, like traditional armies, against a tiny little country, whose only option was to fight or die. That little country beat the shit out of all those Arab countries, because they had to. When the dust had settled, Israel had won lands that hadn't been theirs, that they were then forced to relinquish, again by the U.S. and also Russia. Hamas, like the Viet Cong, fight their gorilla war from the midst of the local population, but unlike the Viet Cong, Hamas attacks civilians, and the Palestinians appear to be too stupid to realize that by allowing these attacks to come from their locations, retribution against these very areas, in the hopes of killing the Hamas fighters, will happen. That the Palestinians haven't rebelled against Hamas, for causing their problems, is amazing to me. But it's certainly a window into the Arab soul. And by the way, you certainly don't believe that those rockets fired into Israel are actually "home made", do you? Get serious.
If Hamas were/had a conventional army, they'd act like one. They're a resistance group that wants freedom and liberation for its people from the mightiest army in the region. They use what they can get. And yes, most of their rockets are home-made/cooked from sugar, oil and fertilizers (I'm not sure.. but that's how the rumour goes). What you don't know is 90% of Hamas operations are against Israeli soldiers. It's not Hamas' fault that you don't know/don't want to know this.

Palestinians want freedom and a state they can call theirs. It's a basic right. Peace talks didn't give them anything, not even hope. The resistance did. That's why they don't rebel against Hamas (plus they trust Hamas for running the government way better than pro-Israel, corrupt Fatah. plus Hamas runs many charities, hospitals,.. ie serves the society in the best way possible). Hamas members are not alien to Palestinian society, they're people's brothers, father's, sons, etc. If you have a fighter in the family, you'd protect him the way you protect other non-combatant members of the family.
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post #676 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 02:03 AM Thread Starter
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Nobel Prize? You're trying to demonstrate achievement by how many prizes were won between the Western World and the Arabs yet you conveniently forget to mention that for the last TWO CENTURIES most Arab land was under oppressive occupation by the West and the Turks, now why is that? A slip?

Under Western occupation, yes. Turk/Ottoman occupation, no.. The Ottoman Empire in its twilight years became too weak to govern in an effective way but we should have stood by them (instead of revolting against them ) until this period of weakness was over.

Siding by the British during WWI only resulted in further weakening Arabs, cutting Arab land into states with border disputes, sometimes minority problems (, e.g. Kurds). The worst IMHO was the creation of Israel on a land only Palestinians called theirs instead of a land that (although belonged to Palestinians but) is part of a big sovereign state that far more millions belong to.

It's like if, say, Cuba attacked Florida. If Florida wasn't part of the US, it would be waaay easier. The compassion it will get from neighbour states will never equal the use of US army to defend it.

That's why nobody speaks of Arab (let alone Muslim ) unity these days. Every Arab leader who wishes to remain in power acts like a good boy and never says a thing that might upset the US or Israel.
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post #677 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 02:07 AM Thread Starter
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Jews in Europe held prominent positions in many fields and I would hate to sound discriminatory but Jews are one of the least laziest ethnic group that exists. They excelled under many conditions that were oppressive or otherwise. I am a firm believer that if there will be a last group standing on this planet that it will the Jews just because they are better prepared and have a far superior instinct for survival. That said, No Hitler on this planet can destroy them and surely I don't expect weaklings like the Arabs to make a dent.
In the Ottoman Empire, too, they held some prominent positions but worked to weaken the state and help pave the way for the creation of Israel.
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post #678 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 02:38 AM Thread Starter
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Use your words to Justify "Israel for Jews or Zionists." Listen to this lecture carefully by a scholar who has studied comparative religion. YouTube - Did God Promise Palestine to Jews? - Hoax of Promised Land

Wow! Ahmed Deedat. I had the honour to attend a lecture he gave like 15 years ago. The place was full that my friends and I had to stand. Well worth it, though.
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post #679 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 02:46 AM Thread Starter
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So you're saying that it's alright for a people to rest on the laurels of their ancestors, for say, perhaps 5000 years, without doing any worldly good on their own. Do you have kids? If so, would you be happy if your son or daughter told you that they never intend to go to work, but instead, plan to just hang around the house for the rest of their lives?

JJ

5000 years?? Divide that by 10 to get somewhere close to a valid claim. Civilisations go up and down. Happened to Eastern as well as Western civilisations. Watch out for a shorter cycle for Arab/Muslim civilisation as so much bashing usually wakes up the sleepy sooner.
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post #680 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-29-2009, 02:48 AM Thread Starter
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Wonder what would happen to Hamas if Israel armed Palestinians with automatic rifles - nothing else.
Simple. Israelis will go back to where they came from. Most likely, Hamas will be elected again.
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