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post #571 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-13-2009, 02:57 AM Thread Starter
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The following was published on 12 Feb 2008
https://israel.indymedia.org/newswir...8511/index.php :

Quote:
In Germany, according to historian Richard Evans, in 1931-1932, if enough Germans of conscience had begun to say No -- history would have had an entirely diferent outcome.

If we go any further down this road the tears will be those of conservatives as well as progressives. They will be (Israeli) tears.

The time for weeping has to stop; the time for confronting must begin.

Adapted from "American Tears"
Naomi Wolf: American Tears
'IDF should wipe out parts of Gaza'
By YAAOV KATZ AND TOVAH LAZAROFF

Israel will escalate its ground and air operations in the Gaza Strip this week and may begin targeting members of the Hamas political leadership in the wake of intensified Kassam rocket attacks against Sderot, senior defense officials said Sunday.

(This was planned before the Annapolis Conference. Israel was simply awaiting a politically-expedient ‘crisis’ it could excuse its aggression with. The rocket attacks are actually down.)

The officials said it was premature to launch a major ground operation and that the army still had a number of steps to try before reaching that point.

"The IDF has not exhausted all of its options," a defense official said. The decision to escalate military operations was made after two brothers, aged eight and 19, were seriously wounded by a Kassam rocket in Sderot on Saturday night.

(Which provides the pretext for the premeditated attack. The attack which injured these young men is on the heads of the Extremists within the Israeli Government who reject the prospect of negotiating and making compromises in the name of peace.)

Interior Minister Meir Sheetrit told The Jerusalem Post that during Sunday's cabinet meeting, he had called on the IDF to "take off its gloves," head into Gaza with armored tractors and raze an entire neighborhood from which rockets have been launched, and then withdraw. The residents of that neighborhood would be warned in advance to flee, he said.

(How nice of him. Imagine if the roles were reversed, and the Palestinians proposed the destruction of entire illegal Israeli settlements on Occupied Territory. What would the condemnation look like?)

Under international law, people have the right to defend themselves, he said.

(Unless they’re Palestinian …)

"This kind of action would be very well understood by the Palestinians," Sheetrit said. "It is inconceivable to leave the situation as it is."

Past restraint had been interpreted by the Palestinians as weakness, and as a result the number of attacks had increased, he said.

(Israel’s attacks on Gaza since Annapolis has more than doubled, and Ha’Aretz just published the findings of a report which showed that over half of the Palestinians murdered in those attacks were civilians.)

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert spoke with reporters on Sunday about the Palestinian rockets while en route to Berlin for a two-day visit, his office said. Israel was doing everything that it could to halt the attack, he said, but "there is no way to stop terrorism in one fell swoop or with one bomb."

(There is a myriad of other measures Israel could use to halt the rockets, but it doesn’t want to, because they provide a convenient pretext for attacks which were planned long before Annapolis.)

Earlier at the cabinet meeting, as angry Sderot residents protested outside, Olmert dismissed calls for a broad Gaza incursion by saying: "There is no doubt that the pain [of Sderot] is felt by all; the outrage is natural, but outrage is not an action plan. We must act in a systematic and orderly fashion, over time. This is what we are doing. This is what we will continue to do."

(What they are doing, systematically, over time, is murdering the Palestinians, annexing their land, and trying to create the illusion that the prospect of a just peace is impossible. They have rejected peace, after all, because a ‘just peace’ will involve Israel giving back much of what it has stolen. These Israelis should be directing their anger at the Extremists within their own Government, who reject peace in the name of the Zionist dream of wiping Palestine off the map.)

He noted that Defense Minister Ehud Barak had visited Sderot that morning and that in recent months, 200 terrorists had been killed and hundreds of others had been wounded in Gaza.

(And even more civilians had been killed and wounded. Wonder why the Palestinians are so angry?)

"Naturally, we cannot be oblivious to the sense of distress in Sderot and the communities adjacent to the Gaza Strip," Olmert said.

(Just to those WITHIN the Gaza Strip, because those people are ‘just Arabs’ …)

Following security consultations held Sunday between Olmert, Barak and senior security officials, the IDF was given the green light to slightly escalate operations against a previously-approved bank of targets that includes Hamas "military" installations and buildings affiliated with the Hamas government in Gaza. The army will also continue its raids into the Strip.

"We will continue with the targeted killings and the pinpointed raids into Gaza," the official said. "We need to keep up the pressure on the terrorist groups and not stop even for one moment."

As The Jerusalem Post reported exclusively on Friday, the defense establishment is also studying the possible consequences of killing senior Hamas political leaders - such as Ismail Haniyeh and Mahmoud Zahar - and the effect such a move would have on the attacks from Gaza.

(Imagine now, for a moment, that it was learned that Hamas was plotting to assassinate people within Israel’s Political Class. What would Israel’s coverage look like …? Immorality breeds contradiction.)

Before this happens, we need to review the consequences and whether it will be effective," an official said.
Senior IDF officers said that while the military was prepared for a large operation in Gaza, Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi did not believe that the time was ripe since Israel had yet to formulate an "exit strategy" for such an incursion.

(And, due to Israel’s War Crimes against Gaza, the world is currently against Israel, and understands who is truly ‘retaliating’ here.)

"We know how we get in but we do not know how we get out," a senior officer said, adding that an operation would be pointless in the absence of a multinational force that would deploy in Gaza or Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas taking control from the IDF. "Neither of these options are very realistic today," the officer said.

(But plans for a reoccupation has been drawn up.)

Sheetrit told the Post he too was concerned about the IDF's ability to exist in Gaza and that therefore Israel had to be careful not to reoccupy Gaza. At the same time, he said, it should not agree to a cease-fire with Hamas.
(And right there is where the problem lies. Israel will not make peace through any process it cannot control.)
Vice Premier Haim Ramon said Israel should focus on measures such as cutting electricity immediately after rocket attacks.

(Collective Punishment is a War Crime.)

Public Security Minister Avi Dichter said past IDF actions had only seemed to draw more rocket fire. In the first five weeks of 2008, Gazans had fired 330 rockets at Negev communities, one-third of what they fired at Israel in all of 2007, he said.

(And how many missiles, rockets, tank shells, etc. were fired INTO Gaza during this same period? How many Palestinians were murdered?)

Last weekend alone 40 rockets were launched, of which 14 struck Sderot, Dichter said. He, too, hinted at the need for large-scale ground activity.

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told reporters after the cabinet meeting, "There is no hope for the Palestinian people with Hamas. There is no hope for any kind of peace or the vision of a Palestinian state which includes the Gaza Strip without a real change on the ground."

(Indeed. So long as Israel remains ruled by these Extremists, there is no hope for peace.)
She added that the rocket attacks were not part of a "vicious cycle" as described in the international media, but rather an action that could be stopped by Hamas.

(But Israel’s rejection of Palestinian democracy, its attempted Coup, and its illegal Collective Punishment, is what initiated this aptly-named cycle, in which Israel is the initiator of hostilities. It is the Palestinians who have no ‘partner for peace’.)

"The world cannot dismiss this by simply saying that there are casualties on both sides. That is not a just comparison," she said.

(Right. The Palestinian body count is vastly larger, and this is a Zionist war.)

She called on the international community to support Israeli retaliatory actions and to take steps themselves against Hamas.

Speaking on the plane to Berlin, Olmert said Hamas was not a partner for peace as long as it refused to return Cpl. Gilad Schalit, who it kidnapped in June 2006. It must also accept the principles laid out by the Middle East Quartet, including renouncing violence and recognizing Israel's right to exist, said Olmert.

(All of which could be achieved if Israel would agree to a cease-fire and enter into negotiations. Israel makes these preconditions for negotiations because it isn’t interested in talks, only ‘might makes right’.)

Also on Sunday, IDF soldiers shot and killed a Palestinian gunman who opened fire at them near the security fence in the northern Gaza Strip. Overnight Saturday, the air force bombed a number of Hamas targets throughout Gaza, including a weapons-manufacturing plant in Rafah and a weapons storehouse in Gaza City.

(But we’re only supposed to condemn the crude, relatively harmless rockets. Right?)

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=JPost/JPArtic

Major IDF Operation into Gaza "Back on Agenda"
winnipeg.indymedia.org/item.php?11029S

ALERT: Annapolis a Charade: Israeli Extremists Plotting Massive AggressionAuthor
israel.indymedia.org/newswire/display/7906/index.php

As Predicted: Major Gaza Assault "Back on Agenda" israel.indymedia.org/newswire/display/8504/index.php
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post #572 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-13-2009, 04:31 AM Thread Starter
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Reporting from Sderot, this is Joe the Plumber..

Joe the Plumber turns war correspondent in Israel | World news | guardian.co.uk :

"I have thousands of questions but I can't think of the right one," he said.
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post #573 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-13-2009, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Tahloube View Post
Joe the Plumber turns war correspondent in Israel | World news | guardian.co.uk :

"I have thousands of questions but I can't think of the right one," he said.
That's the state of wanna be foreign affair dabblers in here too so it's a lot easier for them to have an opinion first, ehem, let me rephrase, a conviction, before they take on events and start interpreting the tid bits that suit them and map out nicely to what they believe. Can you say fair and unbiased?
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post #574 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-13-2009, 09:14 AM
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^ It would help you greatly to take a broader view. I've met no one in my life who is a greater opponent of the state of Israel than you. Forgive us if we don't join in the "woe is Palestine" chant, because the idiotic bastards are still lobbing rockets into Israel, essentially begging them to let more blood.

I'm not sure why you cannot separate the observation of that simple fact from the endorsement of Israel's actions or policies. Most of the people you're arguing with are NOT making excuses for Israel - they're pointing out the utter stupidity of Hamas by failing to take the full advantage given to them by Israel.
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post #575 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-13-2009, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR View Post
^ It would help you greatly to take a broader view. I've met no one in my life who is a greater opponent of the state of Israel than you. Forgive us if we don't join in the "woe is Palestine" chant, because the idiotic bastards are still lobbing rockets into Israel, essentially begging them to let more blood.

I'm not sure why you cannot separate the observation of that simple fact from the endorsement of Israel's actions or policies. Most of the people you're arguing with are NOT making excuses for Israel - they're pointing out the utter stupidity of Hamas by failing to take the full advantage given to them by Israel.
It would help if you actually read what I said in EVERY post. I am no supporter of Hamas or Fatah or any of the Palestinian political or terrorists organizations but I am against disproportional reaction where a whole people are demonized while another is ascended to God status. Now why would I give a fuk? It's simple: I saw this shit FIRST HAND! So, it's not like I am talking about how I feel or what I think the situation is.
I have said this over and over, the Palestinians and Israelis either have to live together or part way and have two separate states. What most people don't seem to understand is that no matter which direction this is going is seems like Israel and the United States want to impose the conditions and the rules of the game while the Palestinians "must" take it or leave it then they call that Peace Negotiations? Give me a fukin break! I can see why the Palestinians are angry with this raw deal but everyone else can't because we were told fables about the Clinton deal and have seen NOTHING of substance from Bush. Those people have no faith in us, Israel and the rest of the world including their Arab brothers. They have been left out. Shit man, why do you think that the Saudi Proposal never took off or even had traction? It ain't about them coming up with solutions bro, it's about us telling them to eat shit and sit the hell down; they know how the game has been played and I can understand their frustration.
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post #576 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-13-2009, 09:52 AM
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Fuck Hamas
Fuck the Palistinans
Good for Israel

We took enough shit here from the IRA , and their supports living and governing in the Republic, plus from those biased bastards in the BBC.
I have experienced enough of the terrorist propganda shite first hand to interperate the news reports on offer.
Perhaps when that cunt has finished the enquirery into that bit of excellent shooting by the Paratroop regiment he can conduct one in Gaza.
Mr Moderate
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post #577 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-13-2009, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Difflock View Post
Fuck Hamas
Fuck the Palistinans
Good for Israel

We took enough shit here from the IRA , and their supports living and governing in the Republic, plus from those biased bastards in the BBC.
I have experienced enough of the terrorist propganda shite first hand to interperate the news reports on offer.
Perhaps when that cunt has finished the enquirery into that bit of excellent shooting by the Paratroop regiment he can conduct one in Gaza.
Mr Moderate
Should we just nuke the problem from existence?
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post #578 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-13-2009, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by drewprof View Post
It would help if you actually read what I said in EVERY post.
That's just impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprof
I am no supporter of Hamas or Fatah or any of the Palestinian political or terrorists organizations but I am against disproportional reaction where a whole people are demonized while another is ascended to God status.
Your comments fail to make this clear, a lot. You seem quick to damn Israel, and quick to damn those who don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprof
Now why would I give a fuk? It's simple: I saw this shit FIRST HAND! So, it's not like I am talking about how I feel or what I think the situation is.
I have said this over and over, the Palestinians and Israelis either have to live together or part way and have two separate states. What most people don't seem to understand is that no matter which direction this is going is seems like Israel and the United States want to impose the conditions and the rules of the game while the Palestinians "must" take it or leave it then they call that Peace Negotiations? Give me a fukin break! I can see why the Palestinians are angry with this raw deal but everyone else can't because we were told fables about the Clinton deal and have seen NOTHING of substance from Bush. Those people have no faith in us, Israel and the rest of the world including their Arab brothers. They have been left out. Shit man, why do you think that the Saudi Proposal never took off or even had traction? It ain't about them coming up with solutions bro, it's about us telling them to eat shit and sit the hell down; they know how the game has been played and I can understand their frustration.
The sentence bolded and underlined above tells all we need to hear about this story. The actions by Hamas and everyone before have failed to rally support for their cause. That doesn't excuse Israel, it explains the failure of the Palestinians. As I said elsewhere, we won the Revolutionary War because we had help from friends; because we were fighting the good fight. Hamas, not so much.
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post #579 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-13-2009, 01:38 PM
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1% you doing better than me this morning, Ok my basic point Drew, for the humanitarians, is the vast disparity,
the example : by ratio
On one hand you have one (innocent) Palestinian killed by a Jew in reprisal, huge out cry!.
On the other hand you have a thousand (innocent) Africans killed by an Arab for no reason other than Imperialistic expansion, silence!.
Why? I can see no other reason than the agenda against the Jew, and a non value placed on an Africans life. Talk about selective sympathy !Your reasoning on that would be?

The Jew has been chased from their lands and murdered by everyone they seek refuge with, historical fact, now they are, as usual under attack for all sides and say enough is enough. And as armed and pissed off as they are, I wouldn't what to be within 500 miles of them! As I pointed out 55 Arab states and no room for 1 Jew state in the very land they came from, shit Abraham came from Oz (Iraq) why don't the Palestinian lobby Iraq to take them back, but then we have all witnessed how a minority like the Kurds have had a GAS of a time there, that’s when the two sides of Islam aren't too busy killing each other.


And someone needs to check their facts 3000 years is waaaaaaay wrong!. We have plenty of Jews in Norway and plenty of Muslims, we don't segregate communities but encourage integration never the less the Muslim brings their hate and violent tendencies ' for their own brothers under Abraham with them to a new land, one could say 'typical' as in the UK grave stones are smashed and synagogues attacked not by the Methodists . So instead of their OWN brothers trying to run the Jew into the farthest reaches of the earth to clear the path for themselves, why not grow the fuck up and live in peace with them.

BTW as for the phosphorus bombs (alleged) take a look at history and you'll find Islam has run a few BBQ's of it's own.
Greek fire as it was called, a Byzantine weapon pick up and used by Islam for many years, a weapon of terror and unmitigated destruction used on humans with great effect, ingredients include sulphur, petroleum, quicklime, phosphorus, naptha and saltpeter, I guess the old saying what goes around comes around.
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post #580 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-13-2009, 04:03 PM
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At the risk of repeating what others may have said (as I have not read all the threads on this subject) here’s my take on the current conflict.

First of all: the timing of the offensive. Sure it could be argued that the recently expired cease fire precipitated Israel’s action and, yet, they endured thousands of rocket attacks over a period of several years without this type of response. What’s different now is the incoming Obama administration. I believe that Israel’s timing is a reflection of a general (and justifiable) lack in confidence in the Obama team. They may feel that this is their last chance to neutralize the Hamas terror organization before the U.S. adopts a more ‘evenhanded” approach to the conflict and, perhaps, constrains Israel’s military options. Obama wants to “talk” to state sponsors of terror and we all know how well that strategy has worked for Europe in curbing Iran’s nuclear ambitions, don’t we?


Secondly I am struck at the muted response to this offensive by the Arab's traditional allies, specifically Russia, and by the more “moderate” Arab states such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt.. Why isn’t Russia pounding its shoes at the dais at the United Nations and threatening military reprisal or, at least, rearmament of Gaza? Apparently there is little love lost for the Hamas terrorists even among the Russians who have had to endure Islamic terrorism on their own soil in the form of Chechen rebels.. Sure the “Arab street” has erupted but the response is no worse than what one could expect, say, from the publishing of a cartoon in a Danish newspaper where millions of Muslims around the world rioted and scores died. So, once again, the “Arab street” has shown itself to be a restless and excitable lot—so what else is new?

The U.N. likely could have brought the war to an end in the early days of the air campaign where it not for George Bush. Pondering America’s position at the U.N. one can imagine Mr. Bush harking back to the early days after the 9/11 attacks when Palestinians were dancing in the street and handing out candy in celebration of our misfortune while 3000 American’s were still buried in the rubble of the WTC. This may be an oversimplification but one can see where Bush’s directive to veto the original U.N. resolution was his final “f*ck you” to the (so aptly named) “Palestinian Murder Organizations” and, ultimately to the Gazan citizens who elected them and celebrated while we were in mourning.

Once again the Arabs have miscalculated both Israel’s military ability and their resolve. The Israelis, having learned their lessons from the inconclusive war in Lebanon, are today better prepared and even more determined to achieve their political and military objectives. The Palestinians assumed that the Israelis would repeat the same mistakes they made in Lebanon—going in with insufficient forces and a lack of popular consensus but, once again, the Palestinians miscalculated. Nothing more.

Israel is here to stay. It seems to me that you can either accommodate yourself to this reality..

Or you can die

Allah Akhbar!
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