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post #521 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 01:15 AM Thread Starter
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Teutone,

As a Hamas sympathizer, I assure you they don't call for Israelis to be "drowned in the Mediterranean, or be exterminated any way possible". They have an issue with the State of Israel as enemy. In their leader's speeches, they say they have nothing against the Jewish but it's always against Zionists. (But they consider Israeli citizens as zionists and then they justify the attacks on Israeli non-military targets)

Palestinians, Hamas or not, don't consider Palestine to be our God given land but we happened to live (and have a life) on the land when the inception of Israel caused our loss of property and homeland altogether. We believe nobody has the right to force us out and deny us the right to return. We lost property and identity in the process of making Israel. We want what is ours back.. if peaceful means don't work (2 decades of negotiations showed a big failure), then by resistance which most free nations used successfully.

We know we're the weak side but also believe our right to return home (home.. not a God-given home ) makes us stronger.. gives us at least more will power.

The world showed repeatedly that the stronger side has the last word. People might sympathize with the weak but politicians (almost) always side with the strong. Palestinian resistance, Hamas and others, are working on building some military strength to the Palestinian people. I think they have the right to do that. It's for the best interest of the people.

Unfortunately, I don't see a peaceful solution any time soon. Israel showed no interest in a genuine peace deal. Maybe they rely on their military might or the support of the US or have other reasons but people are growing sick of begging Israel for their rights, even the pro-peace camp.
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post #522 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 01:21 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlfun View Post
Any color is fine, really, but why is the hood necessary ? Shouldn't a member of the military be proud of his membership ?

Where is the rank insignia , epaulets etc ?

These men have to hide their identity, else Israel will bomb their homes and the neighbourhood in the process, collateral damage .
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post #523 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 01:41 AM Thread Starter
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A few thoughts from the current war on Gaza.

* This war mainly hurt the people, not Hamas. Most casualties are among civilians.. children, women and the weak.

* Hamas and other resistance factions are ready for sacrifice. People are not.

* Israel prepared for the war in advance. I didn't say that.. Uri Avneri, an Israeli writer and peace activist did:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0901/S00050.htm

* Israel has unquestionable military upper hand, why then target civilians? Why use white phosphorus on heavily populated areas? Fighters enjoy mobility and can hide, civilians can't. What will we see next? Nuclear weapons?

* On day one of the aggression, Israel bombed police headquarters. Israel's bid was to cause chaos and looting but failed miserably, even after 1.5 years of blockade.

* If anything, Palestinians learned that the world sides with the strong. This strengthens the stance of the resistancecamp over the peace camp.
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post #524 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 01:53 AM Thread Starter
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NEWS UPDATE:

Rockets from Lebanon hit Israel
Al Jazeera English - Middle East - Rockets from Lebanon hit Israel :

Quote:
Several rockets have been fired into northern Israel from neighbouring Lebanon, Israeli police say.
..

The Israeli military fired mortars into southern Lebanon in response to the missile barrage.
..

At least one Israeli was slightly injured in the attacks, media reports said.
..

Jacky Rowland, Al Jazeera's correspondent southern Israel, said analysts were suggesting that the rocket attack could have been carried out by Palestinians in southern Lebanon.
..
Lebanon is home to more than 400,000 Palestinian refugees, according to UN figures.

The Palestinian Hamas group, which has been targeted by the ongoing aerial and ground assault, denied it carried out the attack from southern Lebanon.
..

The Shia Muslim Hezbollah movement fought a month-long war with Israel in 2006 in which about 1,200 mostly Lebanese civilians were killed.
..

(ezbolla's Hassan Nassralla: )
"We have to act as though all possibilities are real and open [against Israel] and we must always be ready for any eventuality
..

"I am simply asking for the opening of a crossing and not another front."
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post #525 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahloube View Post
Teutone,

As a Hamas sympathizer, I assure you they don't call for Israelis to be "drowned in the Mediterranean, or be exterminated any way possible". They have an issue with the State of Israel as enemy. In their leader's speeches, they say they have nothing against the Jewish but it's always against Zionists. (But they consider Israeli citizens as zionists and then they justify the attacks on Israeli non-military targets)

Palestinians, Hamas or not, don't consider Palestine to be our God given land but we happened to live (and have a life) on the land when the inception of Israel caused our loss of property and homeland altogether. We believe nobody has the right to force us out and deny us the right to return. We lost property and identity in the process of making Israel. We want what is ours back.. if peaceful means don't work (2 decades of negotiations showed a big failure), then by resistance which most free nations used successfully.

We know we're the weak side but also believe our right to return home (home.. not a God-given home ) makes us stronger.. gives us at least more will power.

The world showed repeatedly that the stronger side has the last word. People might sympathize with the weak but politicians (almost) always side with the strong. Palestinian resistance, Hamas and others, are working on building some military strength to the Palestinian people. I think they have the right to do that. It's for the best interest of the people.

Unfortunately, I don't see a peaceful solution any time soon. Israel showed no interest in a genuine peace deal. Maybe they rely on their military might or the support of the US or have other reasons but people are growing sick of begging Israel for their rights, even the pro-peace camp.

In a way the West has contributed to Hamas growth, by ignoring the many years of Fatah corruption and excesses. The U.S. continued blind support of Israel is another contributing factor.
My native Germany is a staunch supporter of the State of Israel, which can do no wrong in the German news.
In a post war program of attempted 'Wiedergutmachung', restitution / reparation, it has paid over 102 Billion Deutsche Marks to survivors of the Holocaust, and the families of those who perished at last count.
The German community guilt complex of the WWII and post war generation is a powerful motivator.
(Gypsies are receiving the same support, and are tax free in Germany.)


Iran, and its proxy Hezbollah, provides training, logistics, financing, and most likely materiel to Hamas. Hamas to me is another of those organization to use the instruments of democracy to gain power, but to discard any notion of democracy to crush dissent, and to get everyone to tow its ideological line.

It can be argued that the land was 'taken' from the former inhabitants, and that the continued existence of Jewish settlements in occupied territories is definitely unlawful.
I believe there is a much ignored UN resolution to that effect.
But while the history of the founding of the Jewish State can be rather murky, the Jews are in Israel to stay.

It seemed to have all started with England having made territorial promises to the Arabs for their help in fighting the forces of the Ottoman Empire, and the subsequent betrayal of same Arabs by Englands Monarch & Foreign Secretary Balfour, after intense lobbying by Lord Rothschild, the leader of the World Zionist movement.
Little known is that at one time Uganda had been suggested for a future Zionist settlement.

On another note, cynics might say Jews and Arabs have a strange interdependent relationship.
The general population of the State of Israel would be unlikely to put up with high taxation etc. without the 'Arab thread,' and without the unifying effect of having Israel as their common enemy in their midst, the Arabs might pick up their tribal wars again.

Quote: "The Balfour declaration of 1917 is a curious document, in which one party promises to a second party the land belonging to a third party."
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post #526 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 03:19 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Teutone View Post
It can be argued that the land was 'taken' from the former inhabitants, and that the continued existence of Jewish settlements in occupied territories is definitely unlawful.
But while the history of the founding of the Jewish State can be rather murky, the Jews are definitely in Israel to stay.

..
Even the hardest Hamas hardliner wouldn't mind Israelis staying in a future Palestinian State as citizens. Hamas has nothing against Jews. Ever heard of Hamas attacks against any jews anywhere but Palestinian/Israeli land?

The other day, I was looking for information on the current ground offensive in Gaza and I discovered this rather weird blog, apparently by secular Israelis. While the nature of their 'news' is strange, their "Who I am" is even stranger. They're speaking most Palestinian minds, sans the Jordan bit . It says:

We are an anti-war blog, anti -Israeli crimes against Palestinian children, as well as we are against the crimes committed by terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah etc. We believe that the existence of the state of Israel is a historical mistake, as well as the calling for destroying it. The solution that we seek for the confrontation between Arabs and Jews is based on the following: Reserving the right of return on the shadow of the UN’s resolution 194\1947 for all refugees from both sides. An eternal solution must be based on one democratic secular state in Palestine for both Palestinian and Jews who were born in Israel before 1990 and for their relatives. Forgiveness between Arabs and Jews based on a real belief in a peaceful future of this land. Destroying the kingdom of Jordan peacefully and bringing back its land to its normal situation as a part of great Palestine. The new state must reserve the equal rights for all citizens without any religious or ethnical discrimination Yeh ….this is what we are. filkkaisrael@gmail.com

FILKKA ISRAEL


Quote:
It seemed to have all started with England having made territorial promises to the Arabs for their help in fighting the forces of the Ottoman Empire, and the subsequent betrayal of same Arabs by Englands Monarch & Foreign Secretary Balfour, after intense lobbying by Lord Rothschild, the leader of the World Zionist movement.
Little known is that at one time Uganda had been suggested for a future Zionist settlement.

The Balfour declaration of 1917 is a curious document, in which one party promises to a second party the land belonging to a third party
Very well said.
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post #527 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Tahloube View Post
Teutone,

As a Hamas sympathizer, I assure you they don't call for Israelis to be "drowned in the Mediterranean, or be exterminated any way possible".
You have just lost what little shred of credibility you may have had here with this statement. As a "sympathizer" you obviously know that is patently false. You'll need to disguise your bullshit a little better to be taken seriously.
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post #528 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 07:46 AM
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Tahloube why Hamas? What makes you think they can help the Palestinians yet they are morphing their cause into a religious one? Making the Palestinian Cause an Islamic Cause weakens it and frankly it's a turn off for many of us who would like to see either a Palestinian state or an integration with Israel which in both cases will require some level of religious flexibility and some strong core fundamental secular views to shape the government for the benefit of ALL Palestinians not just the Muslims. If the Palestinians had a party that called for unity regardless of being Jewish, Muslim or Christian then you probably would have had a better outcome today.
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post #529 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 12:14 PM Thread Starter
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drewprof,

The current players on the Palestinian scene are Fatah, Hamas and to a lesser degree Islamic Jihad. I won't cosider the IJ, because they work with an Iranian agenda. People gave Fatah a chance but what did they do? They turned into another corrupt, oppressive Arab regime. One of my close relatives is a senior official in Fatah. He left them for good a couple of years ago because, according to him, it's now only traitors and mafia in Fatah. For those who don't believe me, I quote Robert Fisk, the British journalist:

What lies behind the Hamas victory is clear. The party was able to capitalise on huge popular discontent with the corrupt Fatah government. But Hamas was also successful because it offered the Palestinian people a vision of a more dignified future. The group's record of providing local educational and health programmes to poor Palestinians was the root of its popularity. The only genuine surprise about the result was the final scale of the Hamas victory.
Leading article: This is the voice of the Palestinian people - Leading Articles, Opinion - The Independent

Hamas is not to be feared. If they were to assume/share power in any future solution, what do you think they'll do with the very obvious verse "Let there be no compulsion in religion..", alBaqara 256? Delete it from the Quraan? No way. Unlike the very state of Israel who is primarily a jewish state (with non-Jews being lesser degree citizens), a Muslim state should not differentiate between citizens on grounds of religion. But this is all hypothetical. Hamas people in a different time or place would be the kind of people who carry out charity work with high efficiency.

According to Wikipedia:
Quote:
Hamas is particularly popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, though it also has a following in the West Bank, and to a lesser extent in other Middle Eastern countries. Since its formation in 1987, Hamas has conducted numerous social, political, and military actions. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. The group devotes much of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities".[94]

In 1973, the Islamic center 'Mujamma' (Tahloube: later, 1987, came to be known as Hamas) was established in Gaza and started to offer clinics, blood banks, day care, medical treatment, meals and youth clubs. The centre plays an important role for providing social care to the people, particularly those living in refugee camps. It also extended financial aid and scholarships to young people who wanted to study in Saudi Arabia and the West.[95] In particular, Hamas funded health services where people could receive free or inexpensive medical treatment. Hamas greatly contributed to the health sector, and facilitated hospital and physician services in the Palestinian territory. On the other hand, Hamas’s use of hospitals is sometimes criticised as purportedly serving the promotion of suicide bombings and other forms of violence against Israel.[citation needed] Hamas also funded education as well as the health service, and built Islamic charities, libraries, mosques, education centers for women. They also built nurseries, kindergartens and supervised religious schools that provide free meals to children. When children attend their schools and mosques, parents are required to sign oaths of allegiance. Refugees, as well as those left without homes, are able to claim financial and technical assistance from Hamas.
The work of Hamas in these fields supplements that provided by the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA). Hamas is also well regarded by Palestinians for its efficiency and perceived lack of corruption compared to Fatah
.
In the West, people associate Islam with 9/11 or the mullas of Iran. I wish there's a way to convince you of the true face and core of Islam but let me try.. The holy land of Palestine never in its history enjoyed harmony between the 3 Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as when it was under Islamic rule. Don't believe me, if you wish, but take a look at history. The Crusades were bloody times and so is the time of the Jewish State of Israel.
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post #530 of 680 (permalink) Old 01-08-2009, 02:12 PM Thread Starter
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I can't imagine this. This could've been the case of my children..

Quote:
In an unusual public statement issued by its Geneva headquarters, the Red Cross called the episode "unacceptable" and said the Israeli military had "failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded."

When rescue workers from the Red Cross and the Palestinian Red Crescent arrived at the site, they found 12 corpses lying on mattresses in one home, along with four young children lying next to their dead mothers, the Red Cross said. The children were too weak to stand and were rushed to a hospital, the agency said.
Can you imagine the horror? What future awaits these poor kids??

Plus:
Al Jazeera English - Middle East - UN: No fighters in targeted school

Ging added that these were his "own staff, senior, experienced, long-serving staff".

"I am very confident now that there was no militant activity inside the school nor militants in the school," he said.

He also reiterated a call for an independent investigation into the incident.

If anybody has evidence to the contrary, then let's bring it forward," Ging said.

The Israeli strike on Tuesday left 43 Palestinians dead and about 100 injured.



Al Jazeera English - Middle East - UN halts Gaza aid after convoy hit :

John Ging, the head of the UN relief agency in Gaza, said that the casualties in the convoy attack were Palestinian civilian contractors hired to bring supplies from the crossing points.

"They were co-ordinating their movements with the Israelis, as they always do, only to find themselves being fired at from the ground troops," he told Al Jazeera.

"It has resulted tragically in the death of one and the injury of two others."

Richard Miron, the UN spokesman, said the Israeli army had been notified in advance about the movements of the UNRWA convoy.

All convoys to Erez and the Kerem Shalom, which has been the main crossing point used for bringing humanitarian supplies into Gaza, were suspended after the incident.

"This underlines the fundamental insecurity inside Gaza at a time when we are trying to address the dire humanitarian needs of the population there," Miron said.

Al Jazeera's Ayman Mohyeldin, reporting from Gaza City, said that 50 bodies were recovered during the three-hour lull, raising the death toll of Palestinians in Gaza to at least 763, including more than 200 children, since air raids first began on December 27.

More than 3,121 people have also been wounded. Eight Israeli soldiers and three civilians have died in the same period.
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