Bush's Consience Rule - Page 14 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #131 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-22-2008, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Cancer_Researcher View Post
OK, now I am confused as hell about this thread and topic.
There are some things that I recently studied (as I am studying for my boards).
What I am confused about is WHY this legislation?
The reason that I am asking is that all these practices ALREADY exist.

Below are some facts as studied for my boards so far:

1. A doctor is not bound to do anything that he feels is immoral or against his religion.
2. A doctor can refuse to see any patient for any reason as long as it doesn't involve the patient's race, religion, or disease. (now you can't say that "I won't treat this patient because he has AIDS", this would be illegal)
3. A doctor can refuse to continue caring for a patients who is not compliant but this is frowned upon by the AMA.
4. A doctor can refuse to see or care or continue caring for a patient if simply he cannot afford to pay, although highly discouraged and frowned upon by the AMA but the doctor can legally do this. This however is not done often unless the guy is an ass but he does have the right to refuse.
5. A doctor does NOT have to stop at the scene of an accident to provide care nor does he have to stay if the accident occurred while the doctor was there.
6. If the doctor stops and provides care at the scene of an accident then he is protected by the good Samaritan laws provided he does not get compensated and he only provides as much care as he was trained for. (Example: An internist can't perform or attempt to perform surgery at the scene but a surgeon can). He also has to stay with the patient and ride with him to the hospital until the patient is handed off the the doctors at the facility.
7. A doctor can refuse abortion, refuse to pray with the patient (frowned upon by AMA)
8. As far as assisted suicide, there is a very very very fine line between assisted suicide and to control pain in a terminal patient. It is deemed legal in ALL states and deemed moral by the AMA that to relieve pain a doctor MAY give as high a dose necessary in order to alleviate the patient's pain even though the doctor knows that such high doses may compromise the patient's respiratory system that may cause his death. This is the only area in which I see a potential for abuse as some doctors may see it as assisted suicide. But then, doctors who feel this way usually transfer the care of such patients to other doctors or if the patient is in a hospice then the care may be transferred to a doctor who services that facility.

There are several more but I just can't think of any right now.
Also as "the clk man" put it, no doctor will run away from a wounded soldier but several can indeed turn away from performing abortions. You cannot force a doctor to do it anyway by law.
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Originally Posted by mzsmbs View Post


5. nope. at that point they are a witness and thus have a MORAL obligation to stay and inform the investigators on what went down.

.
^^^^ Moral, maybe. ( Who's definition?) Legal? NO! That goes for anyone not just doctors. Yes it would be illegal if a person CAUSED the accident or was INVOLVED in an accident and fled the scene. Innocent bystanders don't have any obligations, moral or legal to stay or give their statements. If a person thinks that it is his moral obligation then the person can CHOOSE to stay. He cannot be forced only requested. The person, NOT government decides what is moral and what is immoral. The government defines/decides the LEGALITIES. As of now, NO you don't have to remain at the scene even if you saw everything or even if you were the ONLY one who saw what went down. Like I said, even the police can't force you to stay, they can only REQUEST. They police cannot even force you to make a statement or arrest you for not making a statement. That is for the courts and judges to decide. A witness cannot be forced to testify unless the judge orders it. Nobody has a legal obligation to the investigators.
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post #132 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-22-2008, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Cancer_Researcher View Post
^^^^ Moral, maybe. ( Who's definition?) Legal? NO!
The primary purpose of this idiotic little piece of legislation is to blur the line between "legal" and "moral", hence the outrage demonstrated by those not suffering from social myopia (have they found a cure for that yet?).

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #133 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-22-2008, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
To Cancer Researcher... please make sure that you read the classic as well as the modern hippocratic oath. I hope that you can find peace with yourself and your obvious hatred of President Bush and that this hatred does not taint your care of a patient.

Believe Cancer Researcher, there will come a day when you are doing a rotation and a person comes in for treatment and it will take your reliance upon this oath to give them your full measure of skill.
TNT,
That was meant to be a joke, nothing more.
Thanks for the response though. First of all, let me tell you that I respect your opinions as well as those of ALL others here with whom I don't agree whether its political or Israel/ Palestine issue, or health care, or whatever. I am sure that I am younger than most here and being involved in these types of discussions actually opens up ones mind and allows him to see point of view from the other side that he may not have thought about or even known. This is why I believe that everyone here are each others teachers as well. You always learn something new.
As far as my profession, TNT, I am a doctor. A doctor is blind to politics, race, religion, or sex practices, or whatever else you want to put in this list. He treats a human being and his body and sometimes even his soul. A doctor is color blind. Bush is probably the person I despise the most in this world and as a doctor even I would go to the greatest lengths to save him if I could. My personal belief is that even if your enemy comes to your door for something then you should seize to be each others enemies at that moment and offer your full hospitality while he is your guest. (This in fact has happened to me and today one of my enemies and I are good friends.) Don't worry my friend, I will be an excellent doctor/healer. I know I will be tested. I will always put my education and duties first. Pray for me and my exams please.
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post #134 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-22-2008, 08:30 AM
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The primary purpose of this idiotic little piece of legislation is to blur the line between "legal" and "moral", hence the outrage demonstrated by those not suffering from social myopia (have they found a cure for that yet?).
No not yet but I am a researcher so maybe I should contact the NIH for funding to find a cure.
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post #135 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-22-2008, 08:35 AM
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He agreed the "doctor-patient relationship requires a balancing of interests," but added doctors have a duty only "to provide care that they are comfortable providing."
And yet the Administration had no problem finding a physician to supervise waterboarding at Gitmo.

When devils will the blackest sins put on, they do suggest, at first with heavenly shows - Othello

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post #136 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-22-2008, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Cancer_Researcher View Post
No not yet but I am a researcher so maybe I should contact the NIH for funding to find a cure.
I think all cancer cures should be withheld from supporters of the Iraq War. Can you help me out on that?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #137 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-22-2008, 08:44 AM
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I think all cancer cures should be withheld from supporters of the Iraq War. Can you help me out on that?
I feel your pain but this would be immoral IMO. However I also get carried away some times when I am pissed off and say things that I don't mean like withholding all treatments for cures that will be found through stem cell research for those who oppose it and their immediate families. We just couldn't pick and choose. I know you meant it as a joke.
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post #138 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-22-2008, 11:36 AM
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I think all cancer cures should be withheld from supporters of the Iraq War. Can you help me out on that?
Well, FTL, there you go again, proving that Darwin was wrong about evolution.

Charter member of the Vast Rightwing Conspiracy and proud of it.

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post #139 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-22-2008, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
Well Bear then you do not understand your own words. There has never been a version of the hippocratic oath or Dutch or Oregonian Euthanasia laws that say a Dr. is Required to perform a procedure they are morally opposed to.

Quite simply you have no grounds for your assertions other than your characterization of what a private business person should be required to do.

You continually dodge your own circular logic and seem to suspend belief in the fact that these medical professionals are human beings and citizens of this country by saying that their morality should not be protected as yours and mine is.
Here is a hint for future reference. You were not suppose to suck on the lead bullets. It causes dain bramage.

While you focus on DOCTOR, understand that everyone else is talking about Medical Professionals throughout the field, NOT Doctors. Do you see that subtle difference?

And I see you keep avoiding the thought that if a person finds a job morally objectionable they should leave that job. Apparently you have a problem with that straight logic.

Enjoy your delusions. You are simply hopeless.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #140 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-22-2008, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
Here is a hint for future reference. You were not suppose to suck on the lead bullets. It causes dain bramage.

While you focus on DOCTOR, understand that everyone else is talking about Medical Professionals throughout the field, NOT Doctors. Do you see that subtle difference?

And I see you keep avoiding the thought that if a person finds a job morally objectionable they should leave that job. Apparently you have a problem with that straight logic.

Enjoy your delusions. You are simply hopeless.
can I say janitor? The "decree" included receptionists, so why not janitors? TNT, what do you have t say eh?
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