Your recent comments are in red, my responses in blue. The black text is left over old stuff I wrote.
This issue (Israel's blockade of Gaza)
is so convoluted that most humans with more than the intelligence of a worm want nothing to do with it. That is why "the world" won't do anything. (Then why don't those very same "most humans with more than the intelligence of a worm" still side by Israel? I'm referring in particular to the US administration which doesn't mind sending aids (mainly military) to Israel but suddenly discovers it has "more than the intelligence of a worm" when it comes to Gazan citizens' basic needs of food, medicine and fuel.)
It is a problem fabricated by the UN, (It's not a game of the UN or anybody else. There are one million refugees among Gaza 1.5 million inhabitants. If you want the problem radically solved, then pressure Israel to return them back to their respective home villages.. At least the rocket attacks will stop on Sderot .)
and perpetuated by all involved, who's political organizations to date have made it a game of trying to gain sympathy for financial and military support, as well as cementing their hold on political power in their "country" or sphere of influence. Given the history for the bulk of the lifetimes of the people making up the rest of the world, it is no wonder why outsiders don't want to be involved. And, after having watched the US pour billions and billions of dollars into the area (More specifically into Israel's arsenal)
for more than half a century with zero progress and a world wide terror organization that is focused on eroding the strength of the US (You're not referring to Hamas, are you? They only operate in Palestine/Israel)
, I would love nothing more than to have the US admit this is not our issue, and then make a promise to try to get along with what ever entity emerges from whatever course of action the people in the area wish to take.
I am not restricting my comments to the blockade of Gaza, a relatively recent phenomena - Gaza by my recollection was not part of the UN's creation of the borders of Israel - it was territory occupied after the 1967 war, and, until about 2005 Gaza was governed by the Israelis. The blockade of which you speak is a brutal response to violence originating in Gaza, and aimed at Israel, is it not? So it is a relatively recent event. My point is it happened after most of the rest of world had been taught a lesson by the Arabs, Jews, Persians, Palestinians, and whatever other Middle East tribes and peoples occupy the area - the lesson is stay the fuck out or you will get dragged into something incomprehensible and violent that will likely last for hundreds, even thousands, of years.
And, no, I am not referring to Hamas as the terror group seeking to erode America's strength. I am speaking of the many terrorist groups who have committed acts of violence against the US, its allies and partners, all in the name of Palestine. Or whatever the day's or year's cause is - which is more often associated with US support of Israel - sometimes simply and other times with more convoluted logic.
(Historically, we're only speaking after WWI because before that it was a region within the Ottoman Empire. So was Iraq, Syria, Egypt, etc. who all were cut off from the Ottoman body, occupied briefly by the victorious GB and France and later gained independence. Palestine didn't because an alien entity was declared on its land and called Israel. During the Ottoman reign Palestinians were called Palestinians the way Syrians were called Syrians, Egyptians, etc. but they all belonged to the Ottoman State )
Why wait until now to make something of the geographical area they claim has been their land for all this time? Were the previous oppressors of the Palestinian people just better at oppressing them so they didn't try? (The Ottomans were no oppressors, as far as I know. Although they went through tough times later but never allowed the Zionist Organization to arrange for mass immigration of Jews to Palestine)
......(Because Palestinians do exist. They used to live on the land that is now called Israel. You can't ignore the existence of millions of people just like that.)
This is exactly one of my points. The score keeping starts when each side determines it should to best support their cause. The Jews want us to go back to the days before Christ. They lived there. And, in all likelihood, the DNA in your family's cells has a great deal in common with the DNA in the cells of many Jews, even ones who have "returned" to Israel after thousands of years, which makes the comment that Jews don't assimilate well a social behavior choice and not a genetic issue.
So, who's timetable or starting point is most relevant? You make a point that Palestinians are suffering today, which surely should count for more than Jews who have already suffered and are now dead. But, again, that is a perspective "selection" that can be best exploited to explain whatever you just did that seems like it was underhanded. Like shoot rockets or send suicide bombers into crowds, or deny food, medicine and fuel to millions.
(I'm not digging ancient history books or looking into the Torah or whatever. Israelis do that to justify the influx of jewish immigrants from all over the world that make up Israel. All I have is the fact that my parents and grandparents were born in Palestine, were and still are called Palestinians. They owned their homes and farms through hard work. They never arrived in ships from as far as Australia, Iran, Poland, Germany, Ethiopia, etc. to live in other people's homes.. People who were forced out under the force of arms, put into refugee camps and now under a tight Israeli blockade of basics.)
The time table issue has already been discussed. It is irrelevant when the parties attend a peace conference under false pretenses and negotiate without any real intent to put a compromise into effect. As I view things, the Palestinians have always been represented by drama queens willing to gamble the lives and living conditions for their own personal influence, which is exactly the same repulsive characteristic of the Israeli negotiators and leaders. The Palestinians' leaders were afflicted by another problem - they couldn't agree who was authorized to enter into an agreement, and found no agreement was the only safe way to preserve their illusory hold on some power.
My point is that if the two groups of present day inhabitants would erase the past and look to what kind of can put together if they cooperate, the answer has to be better than what they have today. But neither side is willing - (Allow me to disagree. Palestinians went to peace talks, thanks to the First Intifada, and what did they get almost 2 decades after the Oslo Accord? A fraudulent government that they got rid of by electing Hamas.)
because it is a game their leaders, if not the people themselves, enjoy playing - high stakes, big drama - but a game, because no one will take the conflict and just snuff it out, replacing it with something both sides can work on to make the lives of the actual people living in the area, better. (Let me tell you something. The last time, and only third time, I saw my grandfather was in 1993 and we brought up the subject of the peace talks. He was for it and I was like don't you wanna leave the refugee camp and go back to the home you built just before the occupation? And only resistance will work. He answered in a way that left me with nothing to say. He simply said "We're tired of the insecurity. We're tired of the daily curfews from sunset to sunrise. We want to live like ordinary humans. We want a future to our children's children. It's not we're not patriotic but why not give peace a chance? Maybe Israel's intentions are genuine." What's killing me is that my grandfather who was hopeful of peace died a year ago in Gaza in one of those dark nights where there was no electricity to operate a lamp. My aunt followed a few months later and God knows how many others met the same fate due to fuel and medicine shortages. People who had their hopes crushed under the arrogant Israeli war machine earlier in life are dying now under Israeli siege.)
The identity problem with Palestinians is a significant impediment to solving any immediate problems. No one, it seems, is really in charge and has the authority to make and enforce an agreement. With that kind of leadership it is impossible to enter into a negotiation in good faith - no sooner does the agreement get signed than a disgruntled group claiming to be Palestinian, but not represented by the person or group that signed the agreement, lobs some bombs or sends a suicide bomber into a public area. Which leads to retribution - but then if you pick a different starting point, the violence after the agreement was signed was really retribution for some inhuman Israeli murder of a child. From where I sit nothing in the name of Middle East peace is done in good faith, except the writing of checks for dollars. Lots of money goes to both sides - more to Israel for sure, but many Arab nations get a generous check from the US treasury.
Oh, and if it ever looks like the Palestinians are going to get weary of the fight, other Arab or Persian nations with an interest in eradicating Israel send money and weapons and even a few instigators to renew the interest in the good fight.
So, your point is that Islamic rulers have a record of, at some point in history (actually most of the time )
, being better "Jew Keepers" than Israelis of the last seventy years or so have been "Palestinian Keepers?" (Yes, of course. Plus nobody asked Jews to come and play "Palestinian keepers"
) Were those Islamic "Jew Keepers" doing a great job while the Jews were attacking them with suicide bombers and missiles, or just while the Jews acknowledged their minority position and accepted it? (Missiles? Ever heard of home-made missiles? Anyway, Jews were a minority then and they were given their rights but why make Palestinians a minority AND subject them to bad treatment?? )
What social conditions prevailed to make the Jews wander around looking for a better home? (Ask Europeans. Mind you, the Zionist Movement was set up by European jews. I only know of the Spanish Inquisition and Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice)
Explain how the "Jew Keeping" skills of the Islamic rulers somehow got lost and they let the Jews become such a pain in the world's ass since then? (Ask Hitler. He committed the holocaust not a Muslim ruler. Still, the Zionist Organisation was set up before Hitler was even born. So, maybe even Hitler's persecution is irrelevant )
I mean, it sounds like we have the Islamic nations to blame for the Jew problems facing the world today. Had they just not lost their "Jew Keeping" touch, we would be free of Jew Problems today, right? (Wrong. "Jew Problems" are the result of the jewish mentality. Why didn't they assimilate in the countries they lived in for hundreds of years?? Why do they want someone else's land to be theirs??)
Have you examined the rights of Jews under Islamic rule, vs. the rights of Muslims? What were the differences? Are you sure they were identically equal? No limitations on non-Muslims? Your flippant responses give away your one sided view. Jews never invited "Jew Keepers" to rule them either. And Hitler has nothing to do with the present day situation.
Why restrict your outlook to the Oslo Accord failure? Include the failure of the Palestinian people to negotiate the peaceful turnover of the land they claim they want in 2000. The last Yassir Arafat act of note was to decline to agree to the terms of the 2000 agreement. What was the logic in that? Other than to end the conflict would render Arafat's militancy and basis for political power moot? What about that agreement was so distasteful to the Palestinian people?
By the way, how many Jews would be displaced, many of whom have spent their entire lives building Israel and their homes there, if the Palestinians and Arabs and Persians "had their way?" In the end a solution can be found, but both sides have to want it. It sounds like your grandfather wanted a solution. Too bad he wasn't in charge - I think you describe someone who was genuinely weary of the excuses and failures of the politicians of the area.
Overall, just thinking about this is tiresome. How can anyone live to just buttfuck their neighbors when it costs them their humanity, their children, and much of the joy of being alive?
I wish you and every American would spare a minute to imagine if, say, scientologists of the world decided to set up a home of their own where citizenship is based only on religious belief
and for that they chose a place in the heart of the United States, say, the state you were born in. They use pressure groups, money and media to 'convince' the world of the genuineness of their plight. Would you stand watching if they force you and your family out of your home and seize your properties and you become a refugee in a crowded neighbourhood under a tight siege. Would you happily accept it or would you resist? If you see your countrymen subject to hardships and humiliation, would you advocate tolerance and peace at all costs or would you do something to help the oppressed? Mind you, Americans only inhabited America a few centuries ago, less than Palestinians inhabited Palestine, but both acquired their homes/farms/property through legal means. Nobody has the right to force them out and set up a state on the evacuated land.
Oh, that was really long. Sorry
I am reluctant to continue this discussion because I don't think it is going to be of any real value. Americans, by the way, got their land the old fashioned way. They conquered the natives and took it.
As for what I would do, it is pointless to speculate. But, given the world wide support in the 1970's through 2000 for a successful negotiation, and the breakdown of those efforts by Arafat, I believe the world has grown weary of caring about the Palestinian people. I know I have - just like I am weary of hearing about Israel's plight. As I see it Israel is reaping what Israel sowed. And the same for Palestine. Jim