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post #111 of 278 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 11:47 AM
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Really? Looks like an MB star to me, especially that it's made of MBs.

Obviously,you missed my inference...
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post #112 of 278 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 12:49 PM
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At least and most urgently break the Israeli siege of Gaza. I can't believe the world is watching Israel's collective punishment of 1.5 million people and not doing anything about it.
This issue is so convoluted that most humans with more than the intelligence of a worm want nothing to do with it. That is why "the world" won't do anything. It is a problem fabricated by the UN, and perpetuated by all involved, who's political organizations to date have made it a game of trying to gain sympathy for financial and military support, as well as cementing their hold on political power in their "country" or sphere of influence. Given the history for the bulk of the lifetimes of the people making up the rest of the world, it is no wonder why outsiders don't want to be involved. And, after having watched the US pour billions and billions of dollars into the area for more than half a century with zero progress and a world wide terror organization that is focused on eroding the strength of the US, I would love nothing more than to have the US admit this is not our issue, and then make a promise to try to get along with what ever entity emerges from whatever course of action the people in the area wish to take.

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Oh, no. Please tell me you don't believe the nonsense Israelis propagate about Palestinian land being arid desert until they turned it into paradise. Palestinian land was part of the ailing Ottoman Empire and was no different from the Levantine lands around it, geographically, politically, socially, etc.

Palestinian people are generally hard workers and good achievers. They helped build emerging, newly independent Arab states from Jordan to the Arab Peninsula. If it wasn't for the Israeli occupation, they would've built modern Palestine into one of the best (if not the best) Arab countries.
To be honest, if the "Palestinian" people have populated the area for eons, why are they waiting until now to try to make it their own and establish geographical borders to define their political identity? Why wait until now to make something of the geographical area they claim has been their land for all this time? Were the previous oppressors of the Palestinian people just better at oppressing them so they didn't try? How is it that all of the "sudden" the world needs to acknowledge these Palestinian people and their political identity, which also needs the world to recognize their eons old claim to the land they claim is theirs?

I am not in any position to judge the industriousness of the "Palestinians" or any other people and do not seek to either be in such a position or pass any such judgment. In the subject conflict, however, the parties involved have gone out of their way to make the real issues impossible to discuss or even identify. You add to the picture that is formed in the minds of others - which is defined by people who don't want the end of the fighting - when you insist that in order to take a step forward one must first go back to the day after the earth was formed, or whatever date you choose to better set the stage for today's argument, to understand who has any right to exist on this particular patch of land from your perspective. Today. All the stage setting for the argument can change with the argument tomorrow, over the same basic issue, including the logic. All the while the other side is picking their dates for beginning the examination of who has been harmed the most.

My point is that if the two groups of present day inhabitants would erase the past and look to what kind of can put together if they cooperate, the answer has to be better than what they have today. But neither side is willing - because it is a game their leaders, if not the people themselves, enjoy playing - high stakes, big drama - but a game, because no one will take the conflict and just snuff it out, replacing it with something both sides can work on to make the lives of the actual people living in the area, better.

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What history tells is a different story. Jews as individuals under Islamic rule were never murdered nor discriminated against in any way. They enjoyed full rights just like any other minority. When Spanish jews fled the Inquisition, they moved to the Muslim World from Morocco to Iran. But it seems they could never assimilate in any society.. not Muslim, not European and they wanted a state/ a political entity of their own. They chose Palestine for religious reasons and as you know their book tell them they're in a class above everybody else. So, why give a thought about the goyim people who already live in the land? That's when they became our enemy and the resistance started. Wouldn't you have done the same if Russia did the same to the US?
So, your point is that Islamic rulers have a record of, at some point in history, being better "Jew Keepers" than Israelis of the last seventy years or so have been "Palestinian Keepers?" Were those Islamic "Jew Keepers" doing a great job while the Jews were attacking them with suicide bombers and missiles, or just while the Jews acknowledged their minority position and accepted it? What social conditions prevailed to make the Jews wander around looking for a better home? Explain how the "Jew Keeping" skills of the Islamic rulers somehow got lost and they let the Jews become such a pain in the world's ass since then? I mean, it sounds like we have the Islamic nations to blame for the Jew problems facing the world today. Had they just not lost their "Jew Keeping" touch, we would be free of Jew Problems today, right?

Jim
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post #113 of 278 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 03:22 PM
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Some of the Israelis I have talked to (without them having knowledge about my personal opinions) have clearly stated that they would love to see the Palestinians gone, I mean totally gone and the rest of the Arabs obliterated to the stone age or even exterminated. Now you tell me of your greatest concerns again
Gladly; "CURRENT SITUATION"? Well that leaves a lot up to interpretation.My suspicion is "a just a comprehensive peace" as you say will be attained in Arabic eyes ONLY when there is no Israel. I have no doubt that there are those who would gladly incinerate anyone they deemed necessary if they believed it would accomplish this end.And that is what is of greatest concern to me.

"Current Situation' can be interpreted as "as long as Israel exists".
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post #114 of 278 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 03:25 PM
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Some of the Israelis I have talked to (without them having knowledge about my personal opinions) have clearly stated that they would love to see the Palestinians gone, I mean totally gone and the rest of the Arabs obliterated to the stone age or even exterminated. Now you tell me of your greatest concerns again
I have had the exact same experience! However, every time I have talked to a Palestinian they always say, "pray for Palestine or pray for peace."
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post #115 of 278 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 04:37 PM
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My point is made. If this:

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Originally Posted by torontomichael View Post
Gladly; "CURRENT SITUATION"? Well that leaves a lot up to interpretation.My suspicion is "a just a comprehensive peace" as you say will be attained in Arabic eyes ONLY when there is no Israel. I have no doubt that there are those who would gladly incinerate anyone they deemed necessary if they believed it would accomplish this end.And that is what is of greatest concern to me.

"Current Situation' can be interpreted as "as long as Israel exists".
and this:

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I have had the exact same experience! However, every time I have talked to a Palestinian they always say, "pray for Palestine or pray for peace."
are remotely true, the entire "peace talk" discussion is posturing bullshit. Both sides will play at being interested in peace but really are only looking for an end game advantage to exterminating the other side. In the mean time they play anyone who puts an ear toward either side for all they can get from them. The whole faux drama is absurd and tiring. It is enough to make an "interested party" become a "formerly interested party" and let the chips fall where they may. Jim
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post #116 of 278 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 04:41 PM
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Way too easy Jim. You and your country have armed one side to the teeth--by some measures the third-largest nuclear arsenal on earth--and rendered the other side destitute and dispossessed. You and your country have sponsored decades of privations and atrocities. You're not a disinterested party and you can't become one by simply walking away.
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post #117 of 278 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 04:44 PM
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Way too easy Jim. You and your country have armed one side to the teeth--by some measures the third-largest nuclear arsenal on earth--and rendered the other side destitute and dispossessed. You and your country have sponsored decades of privations and atrocities. You're not a disinterested party and you can't become one by simply walking away.
Hey Marsden, what with this your country stuff? what country are you from?
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post #118 of 278 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 04:44 PM
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Mars, of course
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post #119 of 278 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 07:06 PM
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Way too easy Jim. You and your country have armed one side to the teeth--by some measures the third-largest nuclear arsenal on earth--and rendered the other side destitute and dispossessed. You and your country have sponsored decades of privations and atrocities. You're not a disinterested party and you can't become one by simply walking away.
There have been several "interested parties" involved, from the fabrication of the country "Israel" to the funding and arming of both sides of the conflict. There is enough stink to be spread far and wide and still make us all gag.

From all this it should be apparent we bring out, or at least enable, this perpetual bickering and killing cycle. I see "simply walking away" as the only course of action that can be a success. And by success I mean, gets the US out of the middle of a conflict we were party to setting up and then, always in the interest of doing the "honorable and right thing" by Israel, enabled sixty years of intermittent war - active killing separated by breaks of constant hissing at each other. We have failed to secure a peace, and have had next to zero positive results. Time to just acknowledge this is more difficult than sending men to the Moon and costs much more with no return on our investment. Jim
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post #120 of 278 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 07:14 PM
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Sure doesn't take much to stir the ....... (fill in the blanks) nuts into a frenzy.

Just takes one post by Tahloube.
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