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post #91 of 181 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
I am not really sure what they are suppose to do on some of this. Their wage rate is the same as that of Toyota and Nissan and Honda [sorry Neocons, Rush is just not right on this one] and the main Union issue is pension which is federally governed.

Folks that spend a lot of time bitching about the under-funded pension system that the unions and companies agreed to over the last 40 years which put a load on the system are somehow deathly quiet when discussing the under-funded debt load that the Republican TrickleDown Economics have put on the entire economy. I sense a conflict of principle.
Yes their wage rate is similar but then throw in all the benefits. Please stop trying to misdirect the attention here McBear. The total amount per hour that the American Car Manufacturers pay the employees is some $29.00 higher.

The Union wanted to wait until 2011for any concessions to take effect. They just aren't willing to bend. Therefore they shatter when put under stress.

Quite simply McBear you are wrong. Here is the data.

CARPE DIEM: A Cancer on the Big Three: The $29/Hr. Pay Gap
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Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #92 of 181 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:00 PM
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I hate this argument because it assumes that the manufacturers will just go away and there will be no GM, Ford, or Chrysler.

This is why there is bankruptcy protection under chapter 11. Look at all the major companies that have gone chap. 11 and then turned it around.

Socialism DOES NOT WORK! EVER!
You just made a similar black and white assumption with your Socialism yammer. Good going.

The argument that millions of jobs will be lost is valid because in a manufacturing restructuring several things happen. First, a reduction of capacity which will remove X number of jobs, suppliers and supporting jobs. Second manufacturing rationalization which will consolidate suppliers, offshore suppliers and reduce costs through that process, further removing American jobs and their secondary and tertiary supporting jobs. Third would be the moving of some level of manufacturing offshore/NAFTAed to further reduce cost in a Chapter 11 restructuring.

You are correct. Look around at the major companies that have gone chapter11 and turned around. Other than they now have a much smaller workforce, much of their workforces are now offshore, contract or temporary. Now apply those lessons to a labor intensive industry like Auto Manufacturing and you will see WHY the million job loss answer is a very valid response.

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post #93 of 181 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:00 PM
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And as usual, you neo con fucks want it all to happen as utter chaos, just like the aftermath of Iraq, just like the Katrina fiasco, just like this 700 billion dollar cluster fuck giveaway, just plain chaos, which, like in Iraq, hides your thievery and incompetence. The fact that millions of human beings are affected, thrown out of work, losing their life savings, their homes and whatever else they have left, well, that is something the repugs could care less about, as we are seeing as they make sure CEO fatcats get off scott free and rich as ever in the banking industry. Fine. Let it happen. The political price the right will pay for it is utter destruction as a political force in this country. It's almost worth the price.
Fear! Fear! Fear! Be Afraid! Be Afraid!Just type that FTL it sums up everything you say. Oh that and Racist! Facist!

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu

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post #94 of 181 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:07 PM
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Yes their wage rate is similar but then throw in all the benefits. Please stop trying to misdirect the attention here McBear. The total amount per hour that the American Car Manufacturers pay the employees is some $29.00 higher.

The Union wanted to wait until 2011for any concessions to take effect. They just aren't willing to bend. Therefore they shatter when put under stress.

Quite simply McBear you are wrong. Here is the data.
You might want to talk to the GM of Toyota USA about that data. HE says that Toyota costs are equal to UAW rates [previously posted - see note below]. Not me. I am not misdirecting. I am providing apples to apples. You are not. You are adding in legacy pension costs into the calculations which are federally protected and cannot be changed.

It would help if you could read data tables that show that. Conveniently your "supporting documents" didn't lead you to that part of the data. Maybe they have interest in not doing so.

EDIT http://www.benzworld.org/forums/off-...ts#post3157021 Post 32

McBear,
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post #95 of 181 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:08 PM
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You just made a similar black and white assumption with your Socialism yammer. Good going.

The argument that millions of jobs will be lost is valid because in a manufacturing restructuring several things happen. First, a reduction of capacity which will remove X number of jobs, suppliers and supporting jobs. Second manufacturing rationalization which will consolidate suppliers, offshore suppliers and reduce costs through that process, further removing American jobs and their secondary and tertiary supporting jobs. Third would be the moving of some level of manufacturing offshore/NAFTAed to further reduce cost in a Chapter 11 restructuring.

You are correct. Look around at the major companies that have gone chapter11 and turned around. Other than they now have a much smaller workforce, much of their workforces are now offshore, contract or temporary. Now apply those lessons to a labor intensive industry like Auto Manufacturing and you will see WHY the million job loss answer is a very valid response.
No I did not. Please show me where Socialism has worked. I was making a statement of fact.

As for the job loss argument you are wrong as well again. Please tell us what happened to all of those people who were unemployed during the depression? Did they all starve to death? Did they all just vanish? No, the economy came back around (no thanks to FDR's programs) and they eventually found jobs again and flourished. As for Outsourcing you are wrong again. A Dartmouth study found that outsourcers actually create jobs in America at a faster rate than companies that don't outsource. The same study found that companies that outsourced abroad ended up hiring twice as many workers at home.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #96 of 181 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:10 PM
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You might want to talk to the GM of Toyota USA about that data. HE says that Toyota costs are equal to UAW rates [previously posted]. Not me. I am not misdirecting. I am providing apples to apples. You are not. You are adding in legacy pension costs into the calculations which are federally protected and cannot be changed.

It would help if you could read data tables that show that. Conveniently your "supporting documents" didn't lead you to that part of the data. Maybe they have interest in not doing so.
The "Legacy Pension Costs" are part of the equation because the companies pay into it. It is part of the cost.

Why do you want to try and spin this information McBear? Why do you want to try and put this into a different light than what it is?

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #97 of 181 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:12 PM
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No I did not. Please show me where Socialism has worked. ...
China? Ever heard of them? Europe? Ring a bell? Germany? Sweden? Maybe what you really need to ask is why the least socialistics of all economies is now in utter ruin and is verging on chaos. And that study, could we have a link? Perhaps it's a little outdated. Seems like only yesterday when we didn't have a GOP president on the TV telling us the economy was on the verge of a "real meltdown, donit?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

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post #98 of 181 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:14 PM
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China? Ever heard of them? Europe? Ring a bell? Germany? Sweden?
Oh so their Economies are booming along right now? That is rich FTL, you saying that Europe, Germany, Sweden are successful because of economic socialism. WOW! you really take the trophy for uneducated pablum.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #99 of 181 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:16 PM
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No I did not. Please show me where Socialism has worked. I was making a statement of fact.

As for the job loss argument you are wrong as well again. Please tell us what happened to all of those people who were unemployed during the depression? Did they all starve to death? Did they all just vanish? No, the economy came back around (no thanks to FDR's programs) and they eventually found jobs again and flourished. As for Outsourcing you are wrong again. A Dartmouth study found that outsourcers actually create jobs in America at a faster rate than companies that don't outsource. The same study found that companies that outsourced abroad ended up hiring twice as many workers at home.
I didn't say Socialism worked, YOU drew the conclusion that the bridge loan was Socialism. Your Black and White assumption.

Your comments on the jobs are simply clueless.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #100 of 181 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:20 PM
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The "Legacy Pension Costs" are part of the equation because the companies pay into it. It is part of the cost.

Why do you want to try and spin this information McBear? Why do you want to try and put this into a different light than what it is?
You have ZERO fundamental grasp of economics.

Yes the legacy pension funds are part of the equation but they are NOT part of the "pay package". Thanks to Jimmy Hoffa in the 60-70s Pension funds are federally guarded funds that are external to any negotiations. They HAVE TO BE DIFFERENT BY LAW. Also, the members contribute their own money into that system. Are you suggesting that the pensions be divorced from the process and their contributions be nullified?

Please learn what this is about before discussing it in a vacuum.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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