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post #11 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-08-2008, 07:17 AM
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mcbear, being that you're an advocate of government solving all our problems, can you not agree that brother government has rendered unions obsolete with all their fair labor laws, rules and regulations?

In the day where sweat shops and near slave labor warranted them, unions were good, although, corrupt. They were used not only to help the workers get a fair shake, but they lined the pockets of it's leaders which helped the employers to eventually gain concessions they otherwise would have had no hope of winning. The corruption within their ranks soured the public's perception of them. Unions have, ultimately, lost their usefulness. We are in the day where employers had better walk the tight rope or OSHA and the Department of Labor along with the EEOC will come down on you hard with excessive fines, imprisonment and the liquidation of your business.

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post #12 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-08-2008, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by cmitch View Post
mcbear, being that you're an advocate of government solving all our problems, can you not agree that brother government has rendered unions obsolete with all their fair labor laws, rules and regulations?

In the day where sweat shops and near slave labor warranted them, unions were good, although, corrupt. They were used not only to help the workers get a fair shake, but they lined the pockets of it's leaders which helped the employers to eventually gain concessions they otherwise would have had no hope of winning. The corruption within their ranks soured the public's perception of them. Unions have, ultimately, lost their usefulness. We are in the day where employers had better walk the tight rope or OSHA and the Department of Labor along with the EEOC will come down on you hard with excessive fines, imprisonment and the liquidation of your business.
How about all the perks the union leader got, I heard the Jimmy Hoffa got a really nice pair of concrete shoes.

Last edited by the clk man; 12-08-2008 at 10:30 AM.
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post #13 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-08-2008, 09:12 AM
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The UAW is the primary reason the Beg Three is going under--w/ inept management close behind--and the primary cause of outsourcing to other countries. Bear can have his unions, but they are killing our economy!

Don't believe everything you think
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post #14 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-08-2008, 09:15 AM
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GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp on Monday unveiled an unusually frank advertisement acknowledging it had "disappointed" and sometimes even "betrayed" American consumers as it lobbies to clinch the federal aid it needs to stay afloat into next month.

The print advertisement marked a sharp break from GM's public stance of just several weeks ago when it sought to justify its bid for a U.S. government on the grounds that the credit crisis had undermined its business in ways executives could never have foreseen.

It also came as Chief Executive Rick Wagoner, who has led the automaker since 2000, faces new pressure to step aside as GM seeks up to $18 billion in federal funding.

"While we're still the U.S. sales leader, we acknowledge we have disappointed you," the ad said. "At times we violated your trust by letting our quality fall below industry standards and our designs became lackluster."

The unsigned open letter, entitled "GM's Commitment to the American People" ran in the trade journal Automotive News, which is widely read by industry executives, lobbyists and other insiders.

In the ad, GM admits to other strategic missteps analysts and critics have said hastened its recent decline.

"We have proliferated our brands and dealer network to the point where we lost adequate focus on the core U.S. market," the ad said. "We also biased our product mix toward pick-up trucks and SUVs."

But GM also says in the ad that it was hit by forces beyond its control as it tried to complete a restructuring earlier this year.

"Despite moving quickly to reduce our planned spending by over $20 billion, GM finds itself precariously and frighteningly close to running out of cash," the ad says.

A failure of GM would deepen the current recession and put "millions of job at risk," according to the ad, which also highlights the automaker's pledged restructuring and intention to begin repaying taxpayers in 2011.

GM spokesman Greg Martin said the ad was an attempt by the automaker to present "a pledge directly to the public."

"We believe we need to deliver this commitment unfiltered since quite a bit of media commentary has not kept pace with our actual progress to transform the company," Martin said.

Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd, a Democrat from Connecticut who is central to the effort to craft an auto bailout bill, on Sunday said GM should replace Wagoner.

GM says Wagoner has the support of the company's board.

GM says it disappointed and betrayed consumers | U.S. | Reuters
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post #15 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-08-2008, 09:53 AM Thread Starter
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mcbear, being that you're an advocate of government solving all our problems, can you not agree that brother government has rendered unions obsolete with all their fair labor laws, rules and regulations?

In the day where sweat shops and near slave labor warranted them, unions were good, although, corrupt. They were used not only to help the workers get a fair shake, but they lined the pockets of it's leaders which helped the employers to eventually gain concessions they otherwise would have had no hope of winning. The corruption within their ranks soured the public's perception of them. Unions have, ultimately, lost their usefulness. We are in the day where employers had better walk the tight rope or OSHA and the Department of Labor along with the EEOC will come down on you hard with excessive fines, imprisonment and the liquidation of your business.
First, I am not an advocate of government solving ALL of our problems.

Second, there is a place for unions in that many companies work to the very edges of the regulations in dealing with their employees. And, as we have seen just this past eight years, many regulations are just not enforced.

Your example of OSHA rings hollow this past few years as miner after miner died because OSHA and the DoL failed to enforce Regulations that were on the books and enforce safety. DoL has, in the past been VERY uneven in their actions.

Even Toyota plays fast and loose with the rules by utilizing temp employees, avoiding the benefits system well beyond the contract dates. Because they are the big dog in the area, a blind eye is turned.

The concept that all unions are corrupt is a decades old concept that does not prove out in the real world and does not stand up to scrutiny.

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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-08-2008, 09:56 AM Thread Starter
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So... If I pay my guys well and give them the shirt off of my back your telling me that I am doing it because of the union??? Not because I value my good employees and want to keep them. ?The unions have not been contributing anything positive to society other then greed and extortion for the last 20 years.
I have worked on several split jobs over the years. The non- union guys show up and work and get the job done. The union wants a special entrance just for union employees, and even though they got 1/2 the job the have a picket crew outside the entrance harassing everyone coming through the gate. they are a bunch of fucking cry babies that want every job handed to them because they hold a useless card that says I pay money to a organization that will harass, extort and bully you so I don't have to work for a living. What a joke.
Let's look at that split job again. Did your pay scale and that of your crew match or come very close to that of the union crew? I would bet so.

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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-08-2008, 10:24 AM
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The concept that all unions are corrupt is a decades old concept that does not prove out in the real world and does not stand up to scrutiny.
You obviously have no first hand experience with union corruption, then.

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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-08-2008, 10:24 AM
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How about all the perks the union leader got, I heard the Jimmy Hafa got a really nice pair of concrete shoes.
Jimmy Hoffa: He understands.

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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-08-2008, 11:55 AM Thread Starter
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You obviously have no first hand experience with union corruption, then.
um, I grew up in the coalfields of eastern Kentucky and one of my family's acquaintances was one of the hitmen on the Yablonski murders.

I also have dealt with unions from the management side for much of the past 20 years in getting projects completed so I know that the conditions NOW are much better and more professional than they were in the past. I have dealt with good union actions and bad union actions. I have found that once you understand how to deal with them, much like how to deal with corporate management, things work much smoother and the "corruption" excuse goes away.

"Union corruption" is not a broad brush concept. It exists just like "corrupt politicians", "corruption management" and "unethical xxxxx". It exists but it is not the standard nor is it the rule.

Blaming unions for the woes of this country is just a crutch for people to lazy to dig into the real underlying causes of economic issues.

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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-08-2008, 12:28 PM
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I may not particularly like unions, nor agree with past excesses of unions, or employers.
But until a better working model is found, they are a necessary component in a system of checks and balances.
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