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post #31 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 03:47 PM
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Which says WHAT, Marsden? You know what it says. Government isn't supposed to establish a national religion or prohibit the free exercise, thereof. England had the Church of England and the church was used to suppress the people. THAT is why that clause is there. It would do well to understand, first, WHY something was put there in order to fully understand it's true meaning.
Isn't that precisely what social conservative evangelicals aspire to?

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post #32 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 03:48 PM
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Once you've had that xanax, focus on the meaning of the word "respecting" in the Clause.
That means the government will not pick a religion, say, such as Catholicism, and say, 'You are to worship this way or else'. The Church of England separated from the Roman Catholic Church because they would not grant King Henry VIII an annulment from Catherine of Aragon so he could marry Anne Boleyn. This church was later used to suppress other religions and the people. So, when the framers placed that establishment clause in there, it was to PREVENT THE ESTABLISHMENT OR SANCTIONING of a national religion. It was NOT put in there to PROHIBIT worship of any kind. It actually says so, but, for some reason, that part of it gets glided over.

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post #33 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 03:49 PM
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Isn't that precisely what social conservative evangelicals aspire to?
Suppress the people or the sins they commit? Fine line, isn't it.

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post #34 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 03:50 PM
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That means the government will not pick a religion, say, such as Catholicism, and say, 'You are to worship this way or else'. The Church of England separated from the Roman Catholic Church because they would not grant King Henry VIII an annulment from Catherine of Aragon so he could marry Anne Boleyn. This church was later used to suppress other religions and the people. So, when the framers placed that establishment clause in there, it was to PREVENT THE ESTABLISHMENT OR SANCTIONING of a national religion. It was NOT put in there to PROHIBIT worship of any kind. It actually says so, but, for some reason, that part of it gets glided over.
Straw man. No responsible figure contends that "any kind" of worship is "PROHIBITed". Quite the contrary. But your assertion regarding the meaning of "respecting" remains only that--an assertion.

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post #35 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 03:51 PM
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So consider Madison then. Madison often wrote of "total separation of the church from the state" (1819 letter to Robert Walsh), "perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters" (1822 letter to Livingston), "line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil authority... entire abstinence of the government" (1832 letter to Rev. Adams), and "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States" (1811 letter to Baptist Churches).

No I didn't just research all that
And the government should NOT establish any religions. It is forbidden. The argument here, is, that separation of Church and State is a CONSTITUTIONAL principle. IT IS NOT. If it were, it would be there. Strange that it's not, isn't it?

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post #36 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 03:54 PM
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Suppress the people or the sins they commit? Fine line, isn't it.
There is no spoon. Non-believers are free from sin.

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post #37 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 03:54 PM
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Straw man. No responsible figure contends that "any kind" of worship is "PROHIBITed". Quite the contrary. But your assertion regarding the meaning of "respecting" remains only that--an assertion.
But, worship IS prohibited. I've already outlined the meaning of 'respecting'. It is the government saying 'this religion is better than all the others, so, therefore, you will worship that way'.

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post #38 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 03:55 PM
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There is no spoon. Non-believers are free from sin.
You can't use religion to suppress the people if there is no law requiring people to have one.

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post #39 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 03:56 PM
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And the government should NOT establish any religions. It is forbidden. The argument here, is, that separation of Church and State is a CONSTITUTIONAL principle. IT IS NOT. If it were, it would be there. Strange that it's not, isn't it?
You are (deliberately?) misreading the Clause. It does not state "Congress shall establish no religion" it states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." That means no law having to do with an establishment of religion. There's an enormous difference between the two.

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post #40 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 03:57 PM
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But, worship IS prohibited. I've already outlined the meaning of 'respecting'. It is the government saying 'this religion is better than all the others, so, therefore, you will worship that way'.
Two more assertions begging for substantiation, which will not be found.

There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. --John Ruskin
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