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post #91 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 09:35 PM
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post #92 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-03-2008, 09:38 PM
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post #93 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-04-2008, 06:06 AM
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I couldn't foresee a substantial discussion ensuing. Correct me by posing an argument then.
If you define "an establishment of religion" as something other than the operation of a church system, I'm not sure how your interpretation of the First Amendment makes sense.
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post #94 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-04-2008, 08:01 AM
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False Teachings of Christianity
* The forefathers of the United States Constitution founded this country on God, NOT. But they did found the United States upon religious tolerance, meaning ALL religions!

*When did we put "In God We Trust" on our money? Proof of the forefathers founding our country on God? It wasn't until the civil war, 1861 that the North needed to claim God was on their side, and make adjustments to the forefathers dictates. The country was founded in 1776, that is nearly a hundred years later, none of the forefathers were still alive.

*When does life truly begin at birth or at conception? Jewish custom is at birth, and Christian theology is based upon Jewish tradition. I mean Jesus was a Jew right?

*The church constantly rants Non-Christians will ban your bibles, examples book burnings and library bans!! When the truth be know, most NON christians, or using the term liberals, support open minds and a culture that is diverse. In fact every book burning in the United States that I know of was conducted by Christians.

*Why did they burn so many historical libraries like the one in Alexandria? True Censorship, also a need to eradicate the truth.

*Christians are a persecuted minority, yet they are a population majority in the United States. This oddly rings a similarity that most bullies, criminals, and CEO's will tell you they are victims. Christians resonate that same philosophy by claiming they are a minority.

*Jesus wants you to be wealthy? Yet Jesus says it is easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than a rich man to get into heaven. I think Christians miss the boat on this one.

*Jesus envisioned million dollar churches while children go hungry less than 10 miles away? Remember Jesus taught suffer the little children is evil evil evil, and don't you dare claim ignorance about how you could not have known!!

* "Thou Shalt Not Kill" unless you have a good reason? Turn the other cheek anyone?

*The atrocities committed in the Crusades were all the Catholics fault, but who do we blame for the genocide of Native Americans? The church has committed too many atrocities to even count, and they need to take responsibility rather then using plausible deniability that it was that other guys fault.

*Fear, Fear, and just in case a little more Fear. It will keep them coming back. Death is a cycle, as natural as life itself. Christianity has effectively used a concept that can not be disproving or proving and built fear to keep people in line. The ultimate of all lies. Bush anyone?

*Are Christians not called on to be stewards of the earth, yet do nothing about our environment? Global warming anyone? I guess since the world is going to end soon, as we have been told for the last two thousand years, it really doesn't matter.

*Apostle Paul the opportunist of the Millenia, how does one become an apostle when they did not even know Jesus in the flesh? Jesus said he would build his church upon Peter, NOT Paul.

*Why do the 7th day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, and Jews observe the sabbath on Saturday, everyone should know it is really on Sunday! The sabbath is really on Saturday folks, it was changed to coincide with the Roman Sun god (research if you dont know) to eradicate the pagan belief and overwrite history.


MY OWN THOUGHTS:

I believe that religion is a WAY OF LIFE. YOU choose it and YOU live accordingly; however, YOU do NOT have a right to impose it on anyone else. It is YOUR conscious decision to choose it for YOURSELF. This goes for homosexuality, abortion, and any other issue you can think of.
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post #95 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-04-2008, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cmitch View Post
This is where you FAIL. Jefferson DID NOT WRITE the first amendment. Does the name James Madison sound familiar to you? It was he who is credited with writing the first amendment and much of the first 10 amendments. Thomas Jefferson was in France when the COTUS was written.

Are you going to suggest, next, that since Thomas Jefferson was opposed to the individual freedoms of 'right to free speech and right to bear arms' that we should rip it out and do away with it?

Sorry, try again.
Dipshit, the reason Jefferson is not a signatory is because he was the ambassador to France at the time, and in those days they didn't have fax machines. Jefferson and Madison consulted regularly via post all during the drafting of the Constitution, and it was his insistence on a Bill of Rights based on his earlier authorship and collaboration with George Mason and James Madison in Virginia on that state's constitution that forced it's inclusion in the Constitutuon:

Quote:
Thomas Jefferson

In June 1779 the introduction of Jefferson's bill on religious liberty touched off a quarrel that caused turmoil in Virginia for 8 years. The bill was significant as no other state--indeed, no other nation--provided for complete religious liberty at that time. Jefferson's bill stated "that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions on matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities." Many Virginians regarded the bill as an attack upon Christianity. It did not pass until 1786, and then mainly through the perseverance of James Madison. Jefferson, by then in France, congratulated Madison, adding that "it is honorable for us to have produced the first legislature who had the courage to declare that the reason of man may be trusted with the formation of his own opinions"
you can also see that Madison acted more as draftsman than author by reading this:


Thomas Jefferson's Bill for Religious Freedom in Virginia

Quote:
The following text is a draft written by Thomas Jefferson in 1777. It promoted religious freedom for the state of Virginia. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison promoted the bill for years before it was finally passed by the Virginia legislature. At the time, the Anglican Church was officially recognized as the state religion. The law disestablished that denomination. An alternative proposal that many other denominations be recognized was rejected.

This bill is often called "the precursor to the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment" of the U.S. Constitution. 1 It is this Amendment that guarantees religious freedom for the individual, while erecting a wall of separation between church and government

or this:

Jefferson on Politics & Government: The Bill of Rights

But in the end, anyone who claims Jefferson had nothing to do with the authorship of the Bill of Rights is braying like an ass.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #96 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-04-2008, 08:14 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cmitch View Post
This is where you FAIL. Jefferson DID NOT WRITE the first amendment. Does the name James Madison sound familiar to you? It was he who is credited with writing the first amendment and much of the first 10 amendments. Thomas Jefferson was in France when the COTUS was written.

Are you going to suggest, next, that since Thomas Jefferson was opposed to the individual freedoms of 'right to free speech and right to bear arms' that we should rip it out and do away with it?

Sorry, try again.
More ass braying. Jefferson, who uttered the famous quote that "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants, opposed the 2nd Amendment? What planet did you get that idea from?
Quote:
"For a people who are free and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security. It is, therefore, incumbent on us at every meeting [of Congress] to revise the condition of the militia and to ask ourselves if it is prepared to repel a powerful enemy at every point of our territories exposed to invasion... Congress alone have power to produce a uniform state of preparation in this great organ of defense. The interests which they so deeply feel in their own and their country's security will present this as among the most important objects of their deliberation."
--Thomas Jefferson: 8th Annual Message, 1808. ME 3:482

"None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army. To keep ours armed and disciplined is therefore at all times important." --Thomas Jefferson, 1803.

"It is more a subject of joy [than of regret] that we have so few of the desperate characters which compose modern regular armies. But it proves more forcibly the necessity of obliging every citizen to be a soldier; this was the case with the Greeks and Romans and must be that of every free State. Where there is no oppression there can be no pauper hirelings." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1813.

"A well-disciplined militia, our best reliance in peace and for the first moments of war till regulars may relieve them, I deem [one of] the essential principles of our Government, and consequently [one of] those which ought to shape its administration."
--Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801.

"[The] governor [is] constitutionally the commander of the militia of the State, that is to say, of every man in it able to bear arms." --Thomas Jefferson to A. L. C. Destutt de Tracy, 1811.

"Uncertain as we must ever be of the particular point in our circumference where an enemy may choose to invade us, the only force which can be ready at every point and competent to oppose them, is the body of neighboring citizens as formed into a militia. On these, collected from the parts most convenient, in numbers proportioned to the invading foe, it is best to rely, not only to meet the first attack, but if it threatens to be permanent, to maintain the defence until regulars may be engaged to relieve them."
--Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:334

The Right to Bear Arms
In a nation governed by the people themselves, the possession of arms to defend their nation against usurpers within and without was deemed absolutely necessary. This right was protected by the 2nd Amendment.

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
--Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."
--Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796. ME 9:341

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the Body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind . . . Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 19, 1785.

"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (within his own lands or tenements)."
--Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution with (his note added), 1776. Papers, 1:353

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

--Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).

Taking On Gun Control - Thomas Jefferson on The Second Amendment
Your other ass bray, that Jefferson was opposed to free speech, is to ludicrous to waste time on.

Jefferson was the driving philosopher behind the inherent idea, that man has natural rights and it is man that grants rights to the state, not the other way around, that created this country. Madison was an efficient secretary and a genius at political systems and organization which lead to our system of checks and balances, but was never regarded as a great politcal thinker in the vein of Jefferson - a man who compares to people like Plato and Aristotle, to put it in modern terms, well, Madison was Jefferson's bitch, who put Jefferson's ideas on human rights to paper. The most paramount right to Jefferson, was the right for a man to be left alone, unmolested by the state, especially a state that wished to jam religious bullshit down his throat.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 12-04-2008 at 08:18 AM.
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post #97 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-04-2008, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove View Post
Dipshit, the reason Jefferson is not a signatory is because he was the ambassador to France at the time, and in those days they didn't have fax machines. Jefferson and Madison consulted regularly via post all during the drafting of the Constitution, and it was his insistence on a Bill of Rights based on his earlier authorship and collaboration with George Mason and James Madison in Virginia on that state's constitution that forced it's inclusion in the Constitutuon:



you can also see that Madison acted more as draftsman than author by reading this:


Thomas Jefferson's Bill for Religious Freedom in Virginia




or this:

Jefferson on Politics & Government: The Bill of Rights

But in the end, anyone who claims Jefferson had nothing to do with the authorship of the Bill of Rights is braying like an ass.
You really are a dumbass and it shows. JEFFERSON DID NOT WRITE THE FIRST AMENDMENT. You can cut it and slice it all you want to, dumbass. He was simply consulted. He did offer ideas. You just cannot accept that you are WRONG about this.

Since your comprehension level is at the ground floor at the moment, let me invite you to reread what I posted. I said Jefferson and Washington opposed 'INDIVIDUAL' freedoms of free speech and to keep and bear arms. Not regulated or recognized groups, as evidenced by YOUR quote. He did not wish to grant these rights to INDIVIDUALS. But, they are there. If he had written it, as you suggest, then he wouldn't be writing things he was opposed to.

I have never once said Jefferson did not offer his ideas and earlier thoughts. But, he did not write any of it, as is your assertion, and not all of his ideas and beliefs were included. It would have been a tall order for him to be at two places at once.

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post #98 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-04-2008, 10:08 AM Thread Starter
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You're an idiot.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #99 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-04-2008, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove View Post
You're an idiot.
And based on what I've seen YOU post on here, I can only laugh at you.

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post #100 of 114 (permalink) Old 12-04-2008, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Cancer_Researcher View Post
MY OWN THOUGHTS:

I believe that religion is a WAY OF LIFE. YOU choose it and YOU live accordingly; however, YOU do NOT have a right to impose it on anyone else. It is YOUR conscious decision to choose it for YOURSELF. This goes for homosexuality, abortion, and any other issue you can think of.
the bib le tells you to go and spread the faith, no? that's why you have all these lunatics knocking on your door trying to read you their stories.


cmitch, i don't think you get it man.



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