Global Warming Advocates wonder why people do not believe them? - Page 24 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #231 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 12:09 AM
slightly creased
 
420 SE's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2005
Vehicle: 1988 420 SE; 2015 ML 400
Location: Gold Coast, QLD, AUS & Doha, Qatar
Posts: 16,175
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
But you know what? You have your way of worship and I have mine and that is what makes this country great. I just would appreciate it if you would keep your religion out of my wallet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
And this is just from somebody who is a simpleton and needs to buy some critical thinking skills from Ebay

Last edited by 420 SE; 11-21-2008 at 02:53 AM.
420 SE is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #232 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 12:24 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
What I am doing is taking the numbers from the sources that people who quote them in support of Global Warming, and use them against them. It is quite easy when there is such rampany emissions of CO2 flooding into the atmosphere at the alarming rate of 1 Part Per Million Per Year.

But no problem. I understand that this is also a religion for you as well. In your view I have my book of fables (the Bible) and you have yours. I have my beliefs and you have yours.

You can not prove the existence of Global Warming just as I can not prove the existence of God. I am ok with that. It takes a lot of faith to believe there is an almighty God.

It takes more faith to believe in the Human Impact on Global Warming though. Especially with all of the hard science showing that the effect is negligible.

But you know what? You have your way of worship and I have mine and that is what makes this country great. I just would appreciate it if you would keep your religion out of my wallet.
Your understanding fails. You try to minimize a Global body of science derived over 40 years by saying it is a religion. It is not. I am a systems analyst. I simply look at the real data. I don't really care what the results are until I have a collection from which I can draw a conclusion.

You further devalue your entire argument by calling that body of science "pseudo-science" without having a clue to it's depth or an understanding of it's level of detail. It fully invalidates everything else you say on the subject.

As for being able to prove Global Climate Change, yes, there is evidence. It is empirical and it has been published and peer reviewed and tested. You simply choose to not look at it.

What you choose to look at is simple on dimensional slices [such as your 1ppm/pm number]. That is only one of thousands of elements of the Global Climate Change equation but you seem to want to hang your hopes on that one because you "think" you can debunk it as science. Cool.

As for keeping Global Climate Change out of your wallet, you might want to talk to your employers about that. They are responsible for much of the added cost of implementation in this country because of all of the lobbying they have done in Congress.

But on a more Global level. NOT doing what is necessary to address our elements of the problem will get in your wallet a whole bunch more than NOT addressing the problem. Shortsighted thinking has proven that time and time again. But keep on listening to the folks paid for by the US Oil Industry and we will continue to fall further and further behind. Other countries will gain patents on processes and tooling. Other countries will gain patents on the hardware that we will suddenly find necessary. And again we will be paying a premium because a minority screamed "pseudo-science" without having a clue what they were actually talking about.

Write a letter to your kids NOW and tell them just how positive you are that you are correct and that everyone else is wrong. Make sure you get all your suppositions in writing so that when they get your age and look back they can make objective determinations of just how well you took care of their future.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
mcbear is offline  
post #233 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 05:48 AM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Elite
 
TNTRower's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2007
Vehicle: '98 E320 Wagon (non 4matic)
Location: Atlanta, GA & Malabo, Equatorial Guinea
Posts: 6,663
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to TNTRower
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
Your understanding fails. You try to minimize a Global body of science derived over 40 years by saying it is a religion. It is not. I am a systems analyst. I simply look at the real data. I don't really care what the results are until I have a collection from which I can draw a conclusion.

You further devalue your entire argument by calling that body of science "pseudo-science" without having a clue to it's depth or an understanding of it's level of detail. It fully invalidates everything else you say on the subject.

As for being able to prove Global Climate Change, yes, there is evidence. It is empirical and it has been published and peer reviewed and tested. You simply choose to not look at it.

What you choose to look at is simple on dimensional slices [such as your 1ppm/pm number]. That is only one of thousands of elements of the Global Climate Change equation but you seem to want to hang your hopes on that one because you "think" you can debunk it as science. Cool.

As for keeping Global Climate Change out of your wallet, you might want to talk to your employers about that. They are responsible for much of the added cost of implementation in this country because of all of the lobbying they have done in Congress.

But on a more Global level. NOT doing what is necessary to address our elements of the problem will get in your wallet a whole bunch more than NOT addressing the problem. Shortsighted thinking has proven that time and time again. But keep on listening to the folks paid for by the US Oil Industry and we will continue to fall further and further behind. Other countries will gain patents on processes and tooling. Other countries will gain patents on the hardware that we will suddenly find necessary. And again we will be paying a premium because a minority screamed "pseudo-science" without having a clue what they were actually talking about.

Write a letter to your kids NOW and tell them just how positive you are that you are correct and that everyone else is wrong. Make sure you get all your suppositions in writing so that when they get your age and look back they can make objective determinations of just how well you took care of their future.
1 PPM per year. This is an emergency! 1 PPM per year. This is an emergency! You talk about the Data being there because of 40 years of study. Well sir, please explain why in that 40 sum years the scientists were screaming COOLING, no wait a minute WARMING, no now we see it is COOLING. The fact is that nobody knows what the effect of humans are on the climate. You can not show with the scientific evidence that you cling to like a Fundamentalist Christian clings to the 10 Commandments, that we are a causal factor in the cooling or warming of the climate.

Every study that the global warming crowd trumpets as proof relies upon the fact that CO2 is the enemy and that we are the main provider of CO2 to the atmosphere. And their proof? Well there are more people and more cars and more emitters of CO2 than ever before so "it stands to reason." Well that is not proof.

On top of that we find out with true proof that CO2 rises after the temperature increases, not before. Therefore one thing is certain, increased CO2 levels can't cause an increase in temperature.

I am not minimalizing any argument. I am drawing parallels with argument that you have used in your diatribes against Christianity. I am using your absurdity to illustrate the absurd. You rail against it because the truth hurts is all.

Just admit it McBear...you have to have faith that we are a significant factor in global warming. It's ok. You will feel much better.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
TNTRower is offline  
post #234 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 06:04 AM
slightly creased
 
420 SE's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2005
Vehicle: 1988 420 SE; 2015 ML 400
Location: Gold Coast, QLD, AUS & Doha, Qatar
Posts: 16,175
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
pray, hard....

it is all you have left.

Ross

OzBenz

beware of fundamentalists

420 SE is offline  
post #235 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 06:56 AM
Will Moderate For Cigars
 
cmitch's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2005
Vehicle: 2002 ML320, 2005 S430 4MATIC, 2010 F150 Crew Cab
Location: City on the TN River
Posts: 10,691
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 204 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
The entirety of the theory treats humans as trespassers instead of beings with a rightful place on this planet. So, in order to save the Earth, we must become as the animals, forsaking all industrialized advancements.

As I pointed out before, as the so called evidence changes, so does the identification of the occurrence. Global Cooling, Global Warming, now Global Climate Change. It was just in the late 1980's when, after we and most of the usually mild wintered south experienced 19" to 24" snowfalls that they were screaming 'Global Cooling' and 'Next Ice Age'.

2005 S430 4Matic 'Morton' W220.183 722.671 Rest in Peace

Bells and whistles are thorns and thistles.
cmitch is offline  
post #236 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 10:58 AM
BenzWorld Member
 
Date registered: Nov 2008
Vehicle: car
Location: midwest
Posts: 51
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
All over the world, and on all continents glaciers that are 10,000 plus years old are melting.

There is no doubt of climate change - NONE!

The causes may be another discussion.

We also know that the Sun is heating up the Earth and the said glaciers as well as the arctic seas and antarctic ice shelves.

The other part of the equation is the particulate in the air is COOLING the earth. This particulate is man-made. It is not CO2 which is most likely contributing to the heating. The particulate is most effective by dispersing via airliners over the major population centers of the world.

The HEATING by CO2 exceeds the localized COOLING effects of the particulate by some small amount - 3C heating, and 2C of cooling over 100 years as I recall.

The particulate was started soon after Teller's article I listed beforehand.

If you're unfamiliar with Teller, you can read up on him here:
Edward Teller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Injecting sunlight-scattering particles into the stratosphere appears to be a promising approach. Why not do that?" -E. Teller 1998
eagle100 is offline  
post #237 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 11:11 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Smackrattle's Avatar
 
Date registered: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,510
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 204 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle100 View Post
All over the world, and on all continents glaciers that are 10,000 plus years old are melting.

There is no doubt of climate change - NONE!

The causes may be another discussion.
I blame the propagation and consumption of these things. Responsible governments should ban them.



"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" - Seneca
Smackrattle is offline  
post #238 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 11:23 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
1 PPM per year. This is an emergency! 1 PPM per year. This is an emergency! You talk about the Data being there because of 40 years of study. Well sir, please explain why in that 40 sum years the scientists were screaming COOLING, no wait a minute WARMING, no now we see it is COOLING. The fact is that nobody knows what the effect of humans are on the climate. You can not show with the scientific evidence that you cling to like a Fundamentalist Christian clings to the 10 Commandments, that we are a causal factor in the cooling or warming of the climate.

Every study that the global warming crowd trumpets as proof relies upon the fact that CO2 is the enemy and that we are the main provider of CO2 to the atmosphere. And their proof? Well there are more people and more cars and more emitters of CO2 than ever before so "it stands to reason." Well that is not proof.

On top of that we find out with true proof that CO2 rises after the temperature increases, not before. Therefore one thing is certain, increased CO2 levels can't cause an increase in temperature.

I am not minimalizing any argument. I am drawing parallels with argument that you have used in your diatribes against Christianity. I am using your absurdity to illustrate the absurd. You rail against it because the truth hurts is all.

Just admit it McBear...you have to have faith that we are a significant factor in global warming. It's ok. You will feel much better.
I'm sure you think four point type addresses your point. It doesn't.

You again go back to one of a thousand elements of the Global Climate Change discussion and appear to believe it is the crux of the entire argument. You are incorrect.

Your "parallel" with Christianity is interesting. It is somewhat flawed but interesting. You take a subject that is based purely on faith and try and parallel it with a subject that has forty years of documented science. You even try to use scientific measurements in your own little debunking exercise.

The key to a good analogy is for them to be reasonably parallel. These are not.

The faith that I have is in the work of thousands of scientists who have worked on this subject for decades and who have gone through peer review and who have done so without financial incentive [no cash cow for their research]. The faith you have in the few debunkers comes from their work, paid for by an industry that has a profit incentive to debunk the science that would make them have to change their methods.

And since you declare that this is all PSEUDO-SCIENCE anyway, I fail to see where you even find a foundation to base your argument. Maybe that is why it keeps falling apart...even with four point type.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
mcbear is offline  
post #239 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 11:28 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmitch View Post
The entirety of the theory treats humans as trespassers instead of beings with a rightful place on this planet. So, in order to save the Earth, we must become as the animals, forsaking all industrialized advancements.

As I pointed out before, as the so called evidence changes, so does the identification of the occurrence. Global Cooling, Global Warming, now Global Climate Change. It was just in the late 1980's when, after we and most of the usually mild wintered south experienced 19" to 24" snowfalls that they were screaming 'Global Cooling' and 'Next Ice Age'.
Other than the media, who is this THEY of which you speak?

No, the entire theory does not treat humans as trespassers in the system. Though it does treat humans as abusers of the system. While much of the abuse was not intentional it is abuse nonetheless.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
mcbear is offline  
post #240 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-21-2008, 12:49 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Elite
 
TNTRower's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2007
Vehicle: '98 E320 Wagon (non 4matic)
Location: Atlanta, GA & Malabo, Equatorial Guinea
Posts: 6,663
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to TNTRower
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
I'm sure you think four point type addresses your point. It doesn't.

You again go back to one of a thousand elements of the Global Climate Change discussion and appear to believe it is the crux of the entire argument. You are incorrect.

Your "parallel" with Christianity is interesting. It is somewhat flawed but interesting. You take a subject that is based purely on faith and try and parallel it with a subject that has forty years of documented science. You even try to use scientific measurements in your own little debunking exercise.

The key to a good analogy is for them to be reasonably parallel. These are not.

The faith that I have is in the work of thousands of scientists who have worked on this subject for decades and who have gone through peer review and who have done so without financial incentive [no cash cow for their research]. The faith you have in the few debunkers comes from their work, paid for by an industry that has a profit incentive to debunk the science that would make them have to change their methods.

And since you declare that this is all PSEUDO-SCIENCE anyway, I fail to see where you even find a foundation to base your argument. Maybe that is why it keeps falling apart...even with four point type.
You can obfuscate all you want. It does not change the fact that you can not prove Human Causation or Significant Human Contribution to Causation or Exacerbation. All you can point to is 40 years of Science that has resulted in NO PROOF that what we are doing is causing, making worse, or helping the issue of Global Warming.

If you have the science or the studies that say Humans are causing or that Humans are significantly making the problem worse then let's see it.

All I have seen is Al Gore's nifty slide show and Greenpeace, Environmental Defense Fund, and the like scream that CO2 is what we need to control.

Here is the EDF paper on Global warming Attribution:

http://www.edf.org/documents/5279_Gl...tributuion.pdf

in part it says the following:

Are Humans Responsible for Global Warming?
The case for attributing the recent global warming to human activities rests on
the following undisputed scientific facts:
• Carbon dioxide (CO2) is a greenhouse gas that warms the atmosphere.
• Since pre-industrial times, atmospheric CO2 concentrations have increased from about 280 parts
per million (ppm) to over 380 ppm. Current concentrations of CO2 and other greenhouse gases
are unprecedented in at least the last 650,000 years, based on records from gas bubbles trapped in
polar ice.
• Independent measurements demonstrate that the increased CO2 in the atmosphere comes from
burning fossil fuels and forests. The isotopic composition of carbon from these sources contains a
unique “fingerprint.”
• Since pre-industrial times, global average temperatures have increased by about 0.7ºC, with about
half of the warming occurring over the past few decades.
• The only quantitative and internally consistent explanation for the recent global warming includes
the intensified greenhouse effect caused by the increase in CO2 and other greenhouse gases.

It does not speak about any of the other gases.

So when you or other members on this board talk about how the environmental movement does not blame CO2 as the main cause or it is not the crux, it is a hollow protestation.

Then when multiple independent studies show that CO2 levels lag behind temperature increase by 800 years (+/- 200) ALMOST A MILLENIA you want to continue down the path that we must do something, anything, just stop killing ourselves with CO2 emissions.

So then we take a look at how much we can actually reduce the total PPM in an ideal world of zero (0) emissions and we see that it is about 1 PPM reduction per year if we have zero emissions. So that then means that if we were to do nothing we would still only raise the total CO2 level by 1 PPM in a given year.

All of that tells me that CO2 is not the problem. There is something else that is causing this problem. That is very elementary logic. I think that we can all see that.

So what is causing the problem? Nobody can seem to give us an answer. What we do not with certainty is that CO2 is not the big bad bogeyman in the closet. So why does everyone want to spend all this money to shut down whole sections of industry (Coal comes to mind) and cost the world all of this production, and put a severe strain on the economies of the world?

Why would we want to hurt ourselves by taking a medication that will not cure the illness but in fact make us sicker?

The numbers don't lie McBear. They are not from some "Debunking" site that you always like to pillory. They are from information sources that are supportive of your view.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
TNTRower is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Similar Threads
    Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
    Global warming? Zedd Off-Topic 23 03-26-2008 06:23 PM
    Forget Global Warming - Be scared of Global Cooling 430 Off-Topic 13 08-05-2007 08:36 PM
    Sure could use some global warming... Qubes Off-Topic 6 02-09-2007 05:08 PM
    A refresher on Global Cooling. errrr Global Warming 430 Off-Topic 67 04-07-2006 06:55 PM
    Global Warming Woolly R171 SLK-Class 6 02-26-2005 03:21 PM

    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome